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7th Ed. Javelins vs. Blowpipes

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Pukkaman

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Now I know this thread has probably been done before, but I honestly think that taking 10 ranked skinks with Javs tends to be a much better idea than taking skirmishers for 20pts more requring an upgrade to get javs. You don't get the same modifiers with Javs so youre more likely to actually hit and you can stand and shoot alot more easily (and do alot better). Ofcourse you still can't march and shoot but that would just be stupid but having moved with blowpipes, being at long range and firing twice takes you over 6+ removing the poison effect. Ok so say you dont double tap and youre hitting on 6s that's just the same as if you had javs but you're more likely to get non-poison hits too. While standing and shooting against some light cav (against which your javelins/darts might actually scratch someone) providing theyre over half their charge you can hit them better with javelins due to thrown weapons not suffering the long range penalty. You might say I'm picking at straws here but when 20pts is involved you can be sure I'd rather try and get some extra points to upgrade my saurus than worry about the extra screening or -1 to hit the skirmisher special rule provides.

I realise that if you surround a giant or other high toughness models with a whole load of skirmishers and manage to actually get 20 6s off youll be jumping for be moving alot morjoy, but how often is that gonna happen? Now that skinks don't have scout you'll e and get that -1 for having moved with blowpipes.

For general purposes (screening, distracting chargers and annoying shooting) when you don't quite know what your opponent will be fielding isnt it just abit wiser to take some ranked up skinks and maybe one unit of skimishers to keep that annoying high toughness nasty busy, than to go for 2-3 skirmisher units.

I am fairly new to Lizardmen but from the games I've played so far my ranked up skinks have done alot better than my skirmishers.

What do you all think? Javelins or Blowpipes?

Discuss!

Pukka :D
 
I take skinks not to deal damage, but for their tactical flexability. I use them as redirectors, march blockers and screeners. The skinks ability to carry out these tasks are magnified when they are skirmishing, so I take them as skirmishers. Any damage they may cause is just bonus.
 
The 10 ranked skinks are probably a better bang for your buck, but I enjoy having some of each for the particular niche skirmishers fill. They're superior screeners with the -1 to hit and ability to have flexible formations. 360 movement 6 helps for doing menial chores like chasing off a unit you don't want to rally. 360 shooting tends to scare the opponent, even though blowpipes probably don't do as much damage on average (though I've yet to mathhammer this, just my initial suspicion).

A rule of thumb I am going to use for my armies is at least 2 units of ranked X10 and one skirmisher unit x10 for 180 points. For 180 points you open up a lot of essential tactical options, and it is not an oppressive amount of points that would prevent you from making any type of list you want after that. Plus it fills out your core, so you don't necessarily need to add more, though you likely will.
 
Im going to be using ranked skinks and a unit of skirmishers blowpipes which are good becuz...

1) the enemy can't hit them easily
2)they are incredibly versatile
3) So far they have killed 2 enemy characters in 3 games
4) Need more shots to deal with big nasties like rat ogres
5)They can literraly run circles around ranked troops shooting close ranged and double shots doing 24 shots hitting on 6's
6)Don't forget the skink screen
7) Can get through tough terrain quicker
8) Jav skinks in skirmisher unit are good assassination squads
9) They can fit through gaps that no ranked unit can
10) Did i mention they are very good at killing high toughness models due to the sheer amount of shots?
 
couldnt disagree more just for the ability to skirmish its worth 20 points and yes i know the first couple rounds its hard to get to shoot multiples bc of the 6+rule where u lose your poison but for the points skink skirmishers are so op 7 points for a unit that can bang down a giant in 2 turns can take advantage of terrain and punish enemy when they run waiting behind them and butchering them redirect enemys right into the path of my sarus who are waiting . i love running my skinks behind enemy lines and killing them all when they lose a combat or panic or fail a terror test when a stegy charges them they dominate for 7 points a piece i mean come on y would u give up on the 4 inc of range and the ability to kill big monster quickly . i always run at least 30 but latley ive had so much success with them i run 40 and just make my friends soooooo mad they leave the game complain n about skinks being everywhere
 
I was going to try that tactic last game.... but i forgot that undead don't break lol!

But my skaven and orcs opponenets won't be so lucky....
 
i love it when my 76 point unit of skinks kills a 300 point + unit even if they dont do most the work they still get the credit lol
 
I don't upgrade skinks, they are meant to be cheap. So the skirmishers have blow pipes while the ranked ones have javelins, either way I don't expect them to do much at shooting.
 
strewart said:
I don't upgrade skinks, they are meant to be cheap. So the skirmishers have blow pipes while the ranked ones have javelins, either way I don't expect them to do much at shooting.
Click to expand...

Yeah, against armored stuff they will plink away to little effect... but great for daemons! Beating ward saved troops is quantity of shots and not so much quality of the shots.
 
I agree with strew, i always have a unit of blowpipe skirmishers and will run a unit of ranked skinks in 2000 point list, mainly for flanking and getting the jump on weak skirmishers (like naked night runners) and hiding my "skink chief assassin" (JSOD with dual hand weapons to kill mages and crews with 4 attacks and can fly, all for 84 pts!!!!)
 
I have yet to try out ranked skinks since last time was a complete failure.. (Ironbreakers threatening to charge the unit) I never liked Javelins.. and most certainly never will.. I like to roll alot of dice.. Even if i have to get 6's i still kill ~3 even high save models. Its still a dice game.. and also rolling more dice means more hits. I don't care about rolling 5 to hit.. because i also have to roll 5 to wound then. If i want that i go play VC skellies.

Skinks are ment to be sacrificed while your other units can move forward unhindered. I dont think Ranked skinks will get out of my way fast enough if i want to get moving with my other units. Being Skirmisher makes them get out of the way or adjust tactic better than paying movement to move a little away and then doing nothing while Skirmishers still can shoot if they move away. Even if you only hit on 6's it is better than not shooting.I can charge with skirmishers as good as R&F skinks.. Negating ranks isnt everything.

Skinks are to mislead/Distract people while you are working out your moves. But like i said.. i still have to try them out.. altough i dont think i ever will because of the Javelins.. Used them with skirmish and i didnt even kill a single Troll Slayer..IMO you should be able to give Terradon Riders Blowpipes aswell.. but thats me.
 
Just wanted to provoke a bit of healthy discussion :). I know what I'll be taking in my next game!
 
I have always used 30 basic blowpipe Skink Skirmishers and they have never really failed me. I've never used Skink cohorts since I have plenty of other flank chargers that can do thier jobs better. I find that while you pay more for Skirmishers you are in fact getting your points worth.

If I'm in a situation where single shots will land on 6's and multiple land on 7's (6's and 4's) I'd always go for multiple shots. That's usually because I'm always up against elves so I can afford not to use poison, it's not needed. If it were a high toughness creature where poison can only wound I wouldn't even try shooting at it untill I know I'm in a position to hit multiple shots on 6's. Usually against high toughness creatures they are Large so it's rare when I can't hit them on a 6 with multiple shots.

Thanks for reading, I hope this have made more sense to you then it did for me.
 
foster said:
If I'm in a situation where single shots will land on 6's and multiple land on 7's (6's and 4's) I'd always go for multiple shots. That's usually because I'm always up against elves so I can afford not to use poison, it's not needed. If it were a high toughness creature where poison can only wound I wouldn't even try shooting at it untill I know I'm in a position to hit multiple shots on 6's. Usually against high toughness creatures they are Large so it's rare when I can't hit them on a 6 with multiple shots.
Click to expand...

A quick bit of math... shooting at T3 elves

20 shots hitting on 7's
(1/6)number of sixes*(1/2)number of fours after sixes*(1/2)number of hits that wound = 20/24 = 0.83 wounds

10 shots hitting and poisoning on 6's
(1/6)number of sixes, automatically wounding = 10/6 = 1.67 wounds

As you can see, poisoning is extremely important even against wimpy elves. It is roughly TWICE as effective to use single shot poison instead of double shot hitting on 7's. The disparity increases with toughness, sure, but even at T3 single shot is twice as good.

I know it feels good to throw a handful of 20 dice out, but it just isn't as effective. Only double-shoot if you can hit on 6's.
 
I've had great success with a unit of 11 skinks with a kroxigor and no command, or 15 skinks with no command. Both are fairly cheap, and do their job, but the kroxigor is only 35 points (counting displaced skinks) and he really helps do things like beat on detachments, take buildings, or hold the line versus tomb kings.
 
Just had epic skink versus carrion battle, shields woulda been great, next game, taking the javs.
 
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