8th Ed. I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwarves

[Scalenex]

I play dwarves a lot. The organ gun doesn't have to roll to hit and butchers Terradons and chamo skinks easily. Between tight deployments, entrenchment of the machines on his edge, and the fact that my opponent usually takes 2 organ guns in a 2500 point game means he tends to gain more points killing my hunters than I kill of his war machines. While the organ gun is mopping up my skirmishers my advancing units are thinned out by the grudge thrower(s) and cannon(s).

So now I'm thinking to let the war machines have a free pass and take the points I would spend on war machine hunters to bulk up my regular troops to buy more Saurus, Skrox, and Temple Guard to absorb the extra casualties they will receive while they are marching towards the dwarf front lines (he always makes me come to him).

Alternatively rather than taking two Steggies and trying to knock out the cannons ASAP with chamo skinks. If I choose to take Steggies I'll bring THREE normal Steggies on the assumption that one will be killed before it makes it into close combat.

If I can get into CC and beat the dwarf infantry blocks, the war machines will either be charged shortly and destroyed or simply be irrelevant. If I can't beat the dwarf infantry in CC, well then the war machines aren't really the problem are they?

 

[Lord Tsunami]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

it is an approach, and it is hard to say if it will work or not without testing. I always try to make a list that can face any opponent so for me it is not an option to skip warmachine hunters against dwarfs only.

two organ guns are indeed a problem and it requires planning. i have a few general principles i follow when facing dwarfs with lizzards.

1) he will often have the first turn, since most dwarfs have very few deployment drops. My regular opponent has 3 hordes and a bunch of warmachines. thats it. Hence, you need to plan for him having teh first turn (and hope that you win the roll anyway). Chameleons are great against warmachines as we all know, but not if they dont get to shoot. deploy them either outside the 24 inch range (horrible option) or closer but out of sight (better option but can be hard).

2) you must make sure to have more units threatening his warmachines than he can deal with in every single turn. if you start with two units of chameleons in range on turn 1, and move your terradons in range on turn 2, he will be able to shoot them all down at once. you need to have at least 3 and preferably more units in range of the organguns on the same turn. he can only shoot 2 of them, and then the other 2 can hopefully finish them off in your turn. deploying chameleons as 3 units of 5 rather than one unit of 7 and one of 8 will help this. Terradons and other flying things (scar vet on carpet? ) are essential to break his "castle". chameleon can have troubble with cover modifiers.

3) hide your engine of the gods so it wont be sniped on his turn 1. once you can activate the gungan shield you are "safe". this is very helpful to keep your terradons alive too.

4) life 4 life! i am a huge fan of life magic. i dont care if you say its "standard" or boring", but it is VERY potent to be able to repair some damage done to you early on. Raise your dead sauruses back to life, and get a free extra wound on your damaged stegadon. both awakening wood and dwellers can be used to take out warmachines in a pinch too. Dont be afraid to cast flesh to stone on terradons. t7 terradons have no trouble with organ guns. If he kill 3 of 4 (and you do not flee) use regrowth to bring some back. the important thing is to keep the WMs from firing. it is fine if it takes a few turns to kill him. We are blessed with a slann that can actually break through the magic defense of a dwarf (very few races can do this). I try to get off 5-7 spells per turn with 1-2 dice each (plus 1 free). this will draw out his dice and scrolls, but if you feel like you HAVE to get a spell off in a specific turn, use 6 dice and pray for IF.

5) target prioritize. You must kill the organ guns first, because once they are down, you have "free reign" to kill his other machines. do not go straight for the jugular (the grudge thrower that is). you must be patent and bide your time. the casualties will hurt but you can replenish some, and then slowly gring him down with buffed sauruses and TGs. Stegadons are OK too, but "all good" dwarf players with have GWs on all his infantry so he can actually hurt the steggy if you are not careful.

 

[Dog On Todd]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

What about in low point games without a slann?

Can chameleons actually do anything if the cannons are entrenched? Also, no stomp for terradons..

I have been devising using HUGE blocks of skinks (die just as easily as saurus) with Jungle Swarms as well. Jungle swarms won't break from shooting, can still poison, and maybe skinks could make it to his line?

I'm assuming Krox don't like WM very much? Might leave the skrox at home

 

[Dog On Todd]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

Any thoughts?

 

[Arli]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

Chameleons are my go to unit for dealing with war machines. They are the reason that I chose Lizardmen as my army. Sneaky, sniper (like) lizards....Yes Please!

Anyway, I would use chameleons to take out those warmachines. I do not recall if dwarves get armor saves on their warmachines, but 6s will autowound that high toughness crew.

In low point games, I would take at least one unit of six. Maybe even two units of five.

 

[Dog On Todd]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

Chameleons are my go to unit for dealing with war machines. They are the reason that I chose Lizardmen as my army. Sneaky, sniper (like) lizards....Yes Please!

Anyway, I would use chameleons to take out those warmachines. I do not recall if dwarves get armor saves on their warmachines, but 6s will autowound that high toughness crew.

In low point games, I would take at least one unit of six. Maybe even two units of five.

Yeah, I've been wondering how shooting at warmachines works. Is there not hit allocation/cover from the warmachine?

And if they are entrenched, they get hard cover. All of a sudden doubleshot/moving is hitting on 7's or worse. I don't know though!

 

[Arli]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

I did not know that dwarves could entrench themselves. If they do, you have to be in close range. That means maybe not wounding until round two. The first round, you could get in and shoot once on a 7-8 (depending on all the factors). But, on the other hand, the dwarven player will be trying to shoot that threat rather than focusing on other targets in your army.

 

[Omar]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

it is an approach, and it is hard to say if it will work or not without testing. I always try to make a list that can face any opponent so for me it is not an option to skip warmachine hunters against dwarfs only.

two organ guns are indeed a problem and it requires planning. i have a few general principles i follow when facing dwarfs with lizzards.

1) he will often have the first turn, since most dwarfs have very few deployment drops. My regular opponent has 3 hordes and a bunch of warmachines. thats it. Hence, you need to plan for him having teh first turn (and hope that you win the roll anyway). Chameleons are great against warmachines as we all know, but not if they dont get to shoot. deploy them either outside the 24 inch range (horrible option) or closer but out of sight (better option but can be hard).

2) you must make sure to have more units threatening his warmachines than he can deal with in every single turn. if you start with two units of chameleons in range on turn 1, and move your terradons in range on turn 2, he will be able to shoot them all down at once. you need to have at least 3 and preferably more units in range of the organguns on the same turn. he can only shoot 2 of them, and then the other 2 can hopefully finish them off in your turn. deploying chameleons as 3 units of 5 rather than one unit of 7 and one of 8 will help this. Terradons and other flying things (scar vet on carpet? ) are essential to break his "castle". chameleon can have troubble with cover modifiers.

3) hide your engine of the gods so it wont be sniped on his turn 1. once you can activate the gungan shield you are "safe". this is very helpful to keep your terradons alive too.

4) life 4 life! i am a huge fan of life magic. i dont care if you say its "standard" or boring", but it is VERY potent to be able to repair some damage done to you early on. Raise your dead sauruses back to life, and get a free extra wound on your damaged stegadon. both awakening wood and dwellers can be used to take out warmachines in a pinch too. Dont be afraid to cast flesh to stone on terradons. t7 terradons have no trouble with organ guns. If he kill 3 of 4 (and you do not flee) use regrowth to bring some back. the important thing is to keep the WMs from firing. it is fine if it takes a few turns to kill him. We are blessed with a slann that can actually break through the magic defense of a dwarf (very few races can do this). I try to get off 5-7 spells per turn with 1-2 dice each (plus 1 free). this will draw out his dice and scrolls, but if you feel like you HAVE to get a spell off in a specific turn, use 6 dice and pray for IF.

5) target prioritize. You must kill the organ guns first, because once they are down, you have "free reign" to kill his other machines. do not go straight for the jugular (the grudge thrower that is). you must be patent and bide your time. the casualties will hurt but you can replenish some, and then slowly gring him down with buffed sauruses and TGs. Stegadons are OK too, but "all good" dwarf players with have GWs on all his infantry so he can actually hurt the steggy if you are not careful.

Great advise. Thanks! I'll be using some of these ideas in my next dwarf encounter. On 4) I find that when I play my local dwarf opponents they usually "out pool" my power dice so I rarely ever get anything off (some games nothing). They also tend to carry these magic runes that dispell automatically and can be used along with dispell scrolls. So in my experience magic has not been a great factor in winning against dwarves. I'll try to change the way I draw dispell dice from him and try to see if that'll let me cast one or two spells a phase like you suggested.

On 5) I can attest to this. Just recently played against a WM heavy dwarf oponent (only three units of R&F) and the first 2 turns where bismal to say the least. I bid my time and once I got to the WMs it was on. I ended up winning by about 500 pts. so I agree that you have to patient and suffer through the casualties. If you make it to the other side you still have a good chance to win.

 

[n810]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

I supose the old 6th edition metiond of combating Dwarves might still work,
Mostly it consist of Droping comets of Casandra in their bunker and watching
them slowly run for the hills.

 

[Scalenex]

Re: I think war machine hunters are not worth it versus dwar

I supose the old 6th edition metiond of combating Dwarves might satill work,
Mostly it consist of Droping comets of Casandra in their bunker and watching
them slowly run for the hills.

Yup, my next game of LM versus Dwarves I plan to take the points I would have spent on war machine hunters and buy Tet.