8th Ed. I mean... Really?

[Larinus]

This little issue has been bothering me for quite some time now, and I wanted to address it face on.

...Deep Breath...

Are Salamanders really that good?

It is quite obvious that they are an extremely popular choice for Lizardmen players, seeing as I have only seen one army list without any salamanders on this forum, and the first reply to it was "No Salamanders?"

This annoys me. Why do lizardmen players have to choose salamanders all the time? Can't you see any other way of playing Lizardmen? I think that we've become so obsessed with Salamanders that we fail to see any wrongdoings with them, at all. If a salamander unit does badly in a battle, say, like killing one halberdier in an Empire army, and then being shot to pieces before it does anything else, then the player would just say,

"I was unlucky. But next time, I will still include them, no matter how badly they perform for me."

Please could someone do, I don't know, an in-depth review of salamanders, including the bad points of them, because then I will know that the writer hasn't missed anything, or been biased in any way.

I currently have a large Lizardmen army, without any salamanders! Shocker! So I want to convince myself that it is possible to be good at Lizardmen without using salamanders.

Thanks,
Larinus

 

[n810]

I duno if I have terrible luck or just bad matchups against my regular oponents. (DE, HE, OK, BC, VC)
but my salies only ever hit anything about 1/2 the time and rarely ever panic anything.

 

[Haemoglobin]

I'll post a review of their up and downsides (how I see them, others please feel free to add and discuss anything).

Upsides:

- Mobility: A Salamander pack is quite mobile. They have a 12" march, and even if they are marchblocked you can still make the Leadership test pretty easily with the Cold Blooded rule. Their mobility adds to their firepower aswell with a range of at least 20" of fire. If I'm not mistaken they can March and Shoot, but I know there was a lot of discussion about this. Correct me if I am mistaken, but even if the can't march and shoot its still a shot of at least 16". Add a 4"-6" average roll and WAM a potential 24" inch shot.

Firepower:

- The flames themselves are only Str 3 so that isnt that strong. What makes the Salamanders a powerful weapon is the fact that: 1, removal of partials has dramatically increased the number of hits. 2, any wounds take an armor save of -3 which is very nice if you want to cook some Knights or heavily armored infantry. And 3, any unit taking a single casualty has to take a Panic test. Considering a good hit can easily hit 10 models on a horde unit you will usually have at least one casualty. You can almost equate a good hit to wounds + automatic Panic test. Even if you are targetting something with 8 Leadership, they are bound to fail it eventually. Even though if they have a BSB near the value of the Panic test goes down. This works in good synergy with the spell from the Lore of Death which lowers leadership.

Intimidation:

If your opponent has played against salamanders before he will know they are dangerous and he will probably choose to target the Salamanders early. You can use this to your advantage.

Downsides:

Fairly squishy:

-The packs are vulnerable to shooting, even with the -1 to hit for being Skirmishers. Handlers are somewhat protected by the randomising, but a lucky roll can mean bye bye handlers, and hello Monster Reaction Test. They dont do alot better in CC aswell. The fact that they cause fear can help if you get lucky, but getting into combat usually means staying iin combat and eventually losing a combat.

Misfires:

-When a Salamander misfires he can kill up to 3 handlers, and cause a Monster Reaction test. You can solve this by adding another handler which is pretty cheap. I always get an extra handler.

Well thats what I think about em. Feel free to add anything to this.

 

[Larinus]

Thanks, does anyone else have anything to say about them?

 

[vapor]

Actually, that covered it rather well. I don't expect mine to do much more than remove a rank or two then get in a flank charge to help finish off things, so when they do more I'm usually impressed by them. I've also been known to use them as speed bumps in later turns, since the changes to M&H turns the crew into one shot ward saves.

 

[Xlcontiqu]

The real crux of the issue is Salamander vs. Razordons. With those being two of the cheaper units in the rare section, and with Ancient Stegadons taking a slight hit in 8th, it boils down to the two of them. The fact is a lone Salamander is going to score more hits that a lone Razordon. They also tear up high armour save units and that is something Razordons are just not as good at.

Basically, when making the transition from 7th to 8th, Salamanders improved in a variety of ways, and Razordons just did not.

 

[Haemoglobin]

Idd, the best thing about razordons is (imo) their Stand and Shoot reaction that can potentially be devastating. But any sane player will try to either avoid charging them, OR charge them with something of low points and hope that the razordon misfires and kilss off its handlers. And even then, he might roll crappy and have like 4 shots going off. Which isn't a lot.

 

[n810]

The real crux of the issue is Salamander vs. Razordons. With those being two of the cheaper units in the rare section, and with Ancient Stegadons taking a slight hit in 8th, it boils down to the two of them. The fact is a lone Salamander is going to score more hits that a lone Razordon. They also tear up high armour save units and that is something Razordons are just not as good at.

Basically, when making the transition from 7th to 8th, Salamanders improved in a variety of ways, and Razordons just did not.

or they could roll high and get 30 shots (unit of 3).

in general I find my razordons more reliable,
and definately more effective against small units or
monsters.

 

[TheRolfgar]

You do realize that if ONE of the artillery dice for stand and shoot is a missfire no shots are fired from that razordon right? For me that makes their stand and shoot very unreliable, it can be devastating but it has decent chance of failing completely. Perhaps I will try them again in some friendly games but my experience with them hasn't been very good.

What makes salamanders great has already been covered, great movement and no partials means you can get on the flank of a horde unit and get at least 15 hits per template.


Edit: Salamanders are terrible against lone monsters while razordons are not. With no partials salys are superior against ranked infantry.

 

[Dumbledore]

Considering a good hit can easily hit 10 models on a horde unit you will usually have at least one casualty.

A "good hit" on a horde would actually cause something closer to 25 hits. From a single salamander.

 

[Eternity_Warden]

Eh, people used to say that EOTGs were 'must-haves', and there are plenty more who say you 'must' use a Slann. Don't let this kind of fad determine your opinion about Salamanders, just use what you learn from your own experiences.

 

[Overhamsteren]

I once met a guy who thought he could win without salamanders and he said he had won many battles but I knew that his opponents had been total noobs or that he was just lying so I challenged him to some games and I won the first game easily then I also won the next 3 games easily.

Not saying you are a bad player for not taking salamanders but maybe you should reflect a bit about my story.

 

[Larinus]

How can a 'good' shot from a salamander hit 25 models? Isn't it just those under a flame template?

 

[Xlcontiqu]

How can a 'good' shot from a salamander hit 25 models? Isn't it just those under a flame template?

Partially autohit now too, so you can really hit a ton of models.

 

[Xul]

Thanks, does anyone else have anything to say about them?

that "No Salamanders?" was my post
I just wonder it took people so long to start this discussion (for which I hoped when placing that post..)

my comment on the sallies:
I tried to play them in 7th, but they were of not much use back then. on top of it, in 70-80% of cases, they just had a skink snack instead of shooting. so I dropped them completely in favor of the steg.
now the situation changed significantly:
- may march and fire
- template hits all partially covered models
- changed to monsters&handlers (no more attacks on skinks, passing wounds even in CC to skinks)
- you can have several units of 1 even in smaller games (no limit on number of rare units)
- they now give you a rear or flank bonus in combat
- the steg is a joke now, the EOTG can't be even fielded in 1K
- and surprisingly, they now eat much less skink

I am not saying, that you can't have an army without them, but they are now really worth the "rare" classification and very useful to field. try to think of them as a mobile warmachine, (as the the lizards are lacking a normal WM). the firing and the hit effect is similar to a WM.

 

[Xul]

Fairly squishy:

-The packs are vulnerable to shooting, even with the -1 to hit for being Skirmishers. Handlers are somewhat protected by the randomising, but a lucky roll can mean bye bye handlers, and hello Monster Reaction Test. They dont do alot better in CC aswell. The fact that they cause fear can help if you get lucky, but getting into combat usually means staying iin combat and eventually losing a combat.

it is not that clear with the randomizing - check this post http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/salamanders.4883/. It seems you can either take that or go by the monsters&handlers rule (which is better for the salamander unit). There is no FAQ on that so far, but my take is, as you MUST use the M&H rule in CC, you also have to use it against shooting (instead of the randomization).

 

[Kurlin]

Fairly squishy:

-The packs are vulnerable to shooting, even with the -1 to hit for being Skirmishers. Handlers are somewhat protected by the randomising, but a lucky roll can mean bye bye handlers, and hello Monster Reaction Test. They dont do alot better in CC aswell. The fact that they cause fear can help if you get lucky, but getting into combat usually means staying iin combat and eventually losing a combat.

it is not that clear with the randomizing - check this post http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/salamanders.4883/. It seems you can either take that or go by the monsters&handlers rule (which is better for the salamander unit). There is no FAQ on that so far, but my take is, as you MUST use the M&H rule in CC, you also have to use it against shooting (instead of the randomization).

Again gotta quote the rule that the army book always overrides the BRB. So you MUST use the randomize for shooting instead of the m&h rule. The question arises when you randomize the shot onto the salamander does he get to randomize the wound again, which to be be fair I do not randomize twice. And they are actually pretty beefy in CC for a skirmishing unit if you run at least packs of 2.

Haemoglobin covered the pros and cons quite nicely

Back to the topic at hand, I do not see this as a razordon vs salamander issue. Mainly because anything a razordon can do a unit of skirmishers or chameleons can do better, and with no risk of misfires and poison. The crux comes down to the Ancient Stegadon versus the salamanders for our rare slots. And well in 8th unless you take multiple stegs then one is just too vulnerable to shooting and too many points in a big target for VP in my view.

Now I mainly play against skaven but my salamanders almost always make their points back or more, regardless of whether they panic anyone at all. If you are missing with the template consistently then you are lining up your shot wrong. You should start about 10 inches or so away from your target so with an average roll the template will land right on top. Closer it works too if there is another unit behind them. And with march and shoot you should have no issue lining up the shots the way you want to.

And since I usually run packs of 2 with 8 handlers there is rarely a time when I need to roll on the monster reaction table. My skaven friend gets so pissed of that misfires mean basically nothing to my salamanders while any of his misfires are so potentially devastating. And it is pretty rare for both of the salamnders to misfire so I usually get atleast one shot off.

Are salamanders an absolute necessity? Absolutely not, but I will rarely play without them because they are extremely consistent and one of our few artillery type units. It typically boils down to the armies you are playing most against, but if people are using hordes then there is no better weapon against them then a salamander.

 

[n810]

Well I imagine you would live them if you play against a lot of skaven
they are probably some of the best targets for salamander shooting.

I on the other hand play a lot of games against Ogres...
probably one of the worst targets for Salamanders...

 

[Kurlin]

Well I imagine you would live them if you play against a lot of skaven
they are probably some of the best targets for salamander shooting.

I on the other hand play a lot of games against Ogres...
probably one of the worst targets for Salamanders...

Well yes, but then skirmishers are better then razordons. Greater number of shots for cheaper with poison and no misfire. Like any unit in our army It all comes down to what armies you are playing against, but most lists people put up are all comers.

I wouldn't recommend salamanders at all against an OK army, unless you know they were hording gnoblars. But in general I will almost always recommend them. There is just no other unit in our army that can do what they do.

 

[Gojira]

The only things they really lost were the abilities to see 360°, and all LD tests being re-rollable through the BSB. So now you have to think about how you want to form them up at the end of their movement. They can still shoot in their 90° arc so you still have a lot of flexibility if you think you turn through. I usually run mine on the flanks, so I'm typically shooting at targets without BSB support.

For that trade off they gained -1 to be shot at, march and shoot, no more partials, and the downright odd RAW anomaly of randomising hits and then wounds. (The FAQ specifically added M&H special rule to the their list and only the first paragraph of the hunting pack special rule was replaced.) I actually don't like the M&H rule at all, mainly because the handlers are nothing more than counters. I might as well replace them with skink coloured stones.

The reason people are going crazy over sallies is because they made a trade, came out on top, and their price didn't change one bit.