AoS I just had my rematch, with my opponent playing Sylvaneth, and something bothered me

[Nielspeterdejong]

So I had a rematch against my opponent who played Chaos last time we fought: http://www.lustria-online.com/threa...i-destroyed-him-and-then-we-had-a-talk.18347/ and this time he brought the brand new Sylvaneth army.

My army consisted out of the Thunderquake starhost with 6 Kroxigor, 2 Stegaon, and Engine of the gods. As well as my Slann, Astrolith bearer, Skink starpriest (to buff my Kroxigor), and 3 units of 10 skinks.

However, he apparently brought a entire batallion whom he could put down in one go, and immediately play the first round. This consisted out of a huge tree guy that planted forests everywhere, a bee invested female tree, 3 units of tree archers with 30 inch range, and many more.

To sum it up, he took out my Skink starpriest and astrolith bearer in the first round, and then planted trees all over the area. However, he rolled badly and could have planted a lot more. After almost 4 hours he was unable to kill off my big Thunderquake dino's, and we were amost even (I put a big dent into his big tree). We had to stop, but we quickly rolled for whom would play first. He won with the roll, and then proclaimed that he would win in the end, even though he had been unable to kill my dino's all this time ^^;

But what bothered me was this: My army had decent range, and tough elite units, and with just 3 units which he could place all over the map he was able to put quite a number on me. I feel that for a melee army this would be even worse! (I still want to play a Saurus army, but by the looks of it in competetive that might be a bit of a pain.

What made his army so strong was that he had Sylvaneth special items, buffs, and one big forrmation. While we Seraphon only have a weakish book that kinda shows setups. No bonusses for playing Seraphon only, or the like.
He also mentioned that it might be some time before they give some more love to the Seraphon aka Lizardmen in Age of Sigmar with new starhosts on the level that they have.

So does anyone have a idea for a formation with which we can take on this sylvaneth kind of build? Because he can just plant trees all over the place, and teleport between them. Meaning that I could chace one direction, get killed by the terrain he planted, and then teleport to another spot.

I could say make a Thunderquake starhost with 2 Bastiladon, a Salamander with handlers, Engine of the gods. And then take Lord Kroak with 3 units of 10 skinks. And then keep my Astrolith bearer in reserve so I can summon him when the time is right. However, the Bastiladon have less range and movement compared to the Stegadon, and I already had trouble with those to catch up to him. Also, he will still try and focus down Lord Kroak. And without rerolls (4+ save) he might be in trouble if he rolls badly. He can reroll rerolls, and try to negate some of that damage, but still. Any thoughts about this build to fight him? or other builds? Should I try a build with a Luminark of Hysh in it?

EDIT: Or how does this army sound against Sylvaneth?
Thunderquake starhost: 120
Stegadon: 260
Stegadon: 260
Troglodon: 200
Salamander with handlers: 100

Slann Starmage (defender): 260
Celestial Hurricanum: 320
Luminark of Hysh: 220

3 units of 10 skinks: 240

And then I choose to give rerolls on saves for 1 turn to my Slann because I have 20 points left (I can choose what kind of buff to give right?)

 

[Killer Angel]

I have not read the new sylvaneth book, so I don't know exactly what are their new abilities, but i know they're strong.
That said...

However, he apparently brought a entire batallion whom he could put down in one go, and immediately play the first round. This consisted out of a huge tree guy that planted forests everywhere, a bee invested female tree, 3 units of tree archers with 30 inch range, and many more.

Yeah, keep in mind that also we Seraphon can set up the whole units of a battalion in one go. It's stated in the battletome.

To sum it up, he took out my Skink starpriest and astrolith bearer in the first round, and then planted trees all over the area.

It's a sylvaneth typical tactic, and one of their strongest.

After almost 4 hours he was unable to kill off my big Thunderquake dino's, and we were amost even (I put a big dent into his big tree). We had to stop, but we quickly rolled for whom would play first. He won with the roll, and then proclaimed that he would win in the end, even though he had been unable to kill my dino's all this time

I call bullshit on this one.

But what bothered me was this: My army had decent range, and tough elite units, and with just 3 units which he could place all over the map he was able to put quite a number on me. I feel that for a melee army this would be even worse! (I still want to play a Saurus army, but by the looks of it in competetive that might be a bit of a pain.

I fear you are right. A saurus army would be easily shredded to pieces by Sylvaneth

What made his army so strong was that he had Sylvaneth special items, buffs, and one big forrmation. While we Seraphon only have a weakish book that kinda shows setups. No bonusses for playing Seraphon only, or the like.
He also mentioned that it might be some time before they give some more love to the Seraphon aka Lizardmen in Age of Sigmar with new starhosts on the level that they have.

Sadly, this is true. The new books are bringing to the table new abilities and power, and we are left behind the power curve. We were the strongest army in AoS, being the first ones in receiving the new battletome, and this is now the price to pay. However, we are far from weak.

So does anyone have a idea for a formation with which we can take on this sylvaneth kind of build? Because he can just plant trees all over the place, and teleport between them. Meaning that I could chace one direction, get killed by the terrain he planted, and then teleport to another spot.

I could say make a Thunderquake starhost with 2 Bastiladon, a Salamander with handlers, Engine of the gods. And then take Lord Kroak with 3 units of 10 skinks. And then keep my Astrolith bearer in reserve so I can summon him when the time is right. However, the Bastiladon have less range and movement compared to the Stegadon, and I already had trouble with those to catch up to him. Also, he will still try and focus down Lord Kroak. And without rerolls (4+ save) he might be in trouble if he rolls badly. He can reroll rerolls, and try to negate some of that damage, but still. Any thoughts about this build to fight him? or other builds? Should I try a build with a Luminark of Hysh in it?

I would try to have superior maneuverability than him.
Shadowstrike starhost let you swoop one of his units in turn one with rippers, and you'll also have 2 solid units of chama will hurt him: with forests spam he will give you lots of places to give cover to your chama, and also you can teleport. And you need a priest / starpriest anyway.
Them, I would build a small castle defence, with Slann, an astrolith bearer, a Basti and some screen troops: your castle wont chase his units, but must be enough strong to survive being the main target. Keep away reserve points for summoning, and I mean a good amount (500-600 pts). The Slann with the BSB will chase his units by summoning with superior range: for example, a block of 3 sallies with handlers and a screen unit of 10 skinks to avoid being charged, are 300 pts, and you are probably going to blast your target.
I don't know if it will work in the long run, but surely it will give him many thoughts.

And then I choose to give rerolls on saves for 1 turn to my Slann because I have 20 points left (I can choose what kind of buff to give right?)

Sadly not, it's rolled randomly

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Thanks for the reply man, I'll reply with different font:

I have not read the new sylvaneth book, so I don't know exactly what are their new abilities, but i know they're strong.
That said...



Yeah, keep in mind that also we Seraphon can set up the whole units of a battalion in one go. It's stated in the battletome.
You mean like the bloodclaw and heavenwatch starhosts right? Unfortunately I was able to survive thanks to the Thunderquake starhost's rerolls, and the Slann's command rerolls against ranged. If I took say a Heavenwatch, my Skink starseer would not survive the next round if he went first, especially not if he went first and rolled. And those battallions do not include Slann. He just set up one batallion containing a 16 hp hero, and some very powerfull heroes as well.

It's a sylvaneth typical tactic, and one of their strongest.
Indeed, any tips on how to counter them? I really want a rematch and be able to beat him

I call bullshit on this one.
You and me both XD


I fear you are right. A saurus army would be easily shredded to pieces by Sylvaneth
Yup, even if you take a Slann, before he can use his command they will have been able to take out my Slann or another unit.


Sadly, this is true. The new books are bringing to the table new abilities and power, and we are left behind the power curve. We were the strongest army in AoS, being the first ones in receiving the new battletome, and this is now the price to pay. However, we are far from weak.
But didn't they mention they would bring out a book which gave buffs/updates/batallions/items for all the previous armies? I heard someone mention that on Reddit.



I would try to have superior maneuverability than him.
Shadowstrike starhost let you swoop one of his units in turn one with rippers, and you'll also have 2 solid units of chama will hurt him: with forests spam he will give you lots of places to give cover to your chama, and also you can teleport. And you need a priest / starpriest anyway.
Them, I would build a small castle defence, with Slann, an astrolith bearer, a Basti and some screen troops: your castle wont chase his units, but must be enough strong to survive being the main target. Keep away reserve points for summoning, and I mean a good amount (500-600 pts). The Slann with the BSB will chase his units by summoning with superior range: for example, a block of 3 sallies with handlers and a screen unit of 10 skinks to avoid being charged, are 300 pts, and you are probably going to blast your target.
I don't know if it will work in the long run, but surely it will give him many thoughts.

I was thinking about that myself, but during the battle he had a conversation with his friends, stating that he would never allow anyone to summon anyone, since he would focus down the summoner. If I put a Slann there with point reseverse, he will just destroy it in the first round, because without his command he gets no rerolls on saves. Unless I take Lord Kroak, but without rerolls he also won't survive that long, since he did more then 10 damage to my Astrolith bearer and Skink starpriest.


Sadly not, it's rolled randomly
I asked around on reddit, and they mentioned that it depended on the group. You can discuss this with your opponent, and choose wether to get a random effect, or choose a effect.

This is kinda important, because if I can choose the buff, I can choose to give it to my Slann. Meaning he might survive the next round, and then I can put my command on my army, and allow rerolls on saves. Thus allowing my two charriots and Stegadon to deal some nice damage.

 

[Killer Angel]

Regarding the battallions: it is said in the introduction to "warscroll battallions", in our battletome. You can field the units (of the battallion) one at a time, or all together at once.

Regarding the elves taking the Slann in turn one: your opponent can say that he can kill him, but this must be supported by facts. Screen with cheap units will stop melee, and ranged can be softened by the presence of an Eternity Warden. Which you can summon again if they kill him in turn one.
If your Slann has an additional wounds as order general, they need to inflict 7 wounds to the warden and 8 to the Slann... and, given that you choose how to swap the wounds, and all wounds from the attacks of a unit are assigned in the same time, you could do a thing like this:
- the volley of archers unit n. 1 deals 9 unsaved wounds. 6 goes to the warden and 3 to the Slann.
- the volley of archer units n. 2 deals 7 unsaved wounds. all 7 goes to the Warden.

Even without guards, a warden is almost mandatory if you face lots of shooting.
You should also begin to play in the various realms: some of them are literally a nightmare for shooting armies.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Regarding the battallions: it is said in the introduction to "warscroll battallions", in our battletome. You can field the units (of the battallion) one at a time, or all together at once.

Regarding the elves taking the Slann in turn one: your opponent can say that he can kill him, but this must be supported by facts. Screen with cheap units will stop melee, and ranged can be softened by the presence of an Eternity Warden. Which you can summon again if they kill him in turn one.
If your Slann has an additional wounds as order general, they need to inflict 7 wounds to the warden and 8 to the Slann... and, given that you choose how to swap the wounds, and all wounds from the attacks of a unit are assigned in the same time, you could do a thing like this:
- the volley of archers unit n. 1 deals 9 unsaved wounds. 6 goes to the warden and 3 to the Slann.
- the volley of archer units n. 2 deals 7 unsaved wounds. all 7 goes to the Warden.

Even without guards, a warden is almost mandatory if you face lots of shooting.
You should also begin to play in the various realms: some of them are literally a nightmare for shooting armies.

Ah yes, that's true. But problem is his entire army was one big batallion. Including hero with command and everything.

Ah good point! However, about the Eternity warden, in order to summon him again, don't you need to put 140 points in reserve?

And what do you mean with various realms?

 

[Killer Angel]

Battalion. There's not so much you can do, if he can place at once all his army.

Warden. Yes you need points. With 2000, if you field slann, warden, BSB, basti, 30 skinks and Shadowstrike Starhost. .. if I remember correctly the points values (not sure about them) you should save 300 pts; enough to summon a second warden and 2 sallies with handlers.

Realms. IIRC in manuals as " order battletome " there are the rules to play battles in the realm of fire and similar, with different additional rules that favor (or make difficult ) charges, magic, shooting and so on. Fight within realms are becoming common in tournaments

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Battalion. There's not so much you can do, if he can place at once all his army.

Warden. Yes you need points. With 2000, if you field slann, warden, BSB, basti, 30 skinks and Shadowstrike Starhost. .. if I remember correctly the points values (not sure about them) you should save 300 pts; enough to summon a second warden and 2 sallies with handlers.

Realms. IIRC in manuals as " order battletome " there are the rules to play battles in the realm of fire and similar, with different additional rules that favor (or make difficult ) charges, magic, shooting and so on. Fight within realms are becoming common in tournaments

True, I'm thinking about putting either a Eternity warden with a Luminark of Hysh down, or just the Luminark (in both cases the Slann gets the defender buff) and hope that I roll 6's)

And that actually sounds pretty cool! So far I"ve just had straight up matches.

 

[Boboassa]

... summon a second warden and 2 sallies with handlers.

Can you summon the salamanders and the handlers at the same time or you have to summon them separately? If you summon the salamanders and then you fail to summon the handlers you have 2 useless salamanders at 9' from the enemy that can shoot at 8' which is pretty useless and weak as a strategy

 

[Nefertem]

What about adding a bastiladon? It can be taken as part of the thunderquake host and adds much needed ranged damage. He can survive a round of enemy fire (good for your chaff) and should dish out 14 shots in 2 rounds.
I used double stegadons twice and was rather disappointed about their performance. I thought they could take some beating (wrong), and crush infantry (wrong). They got severely pasted by plague bearers. Nevertheless perhaps I just played them utterly wrong.
As written by @Killer Angel, seems an excellent try against sylvaneth...

 

[Seraphage]

Can you summon the salamanders and the handlers at the same time or you have to summon them separately? If you summon the salamanders and then you fail to summon the handlers you have 2 useless salamanders at 9' from the enemy that can shoot at 8' which is pretty useless and weak as a strategy

Yep, exactly. This is why Salamanders are not really useful right now, not until summoning gets a little bit changed at least. If they are in table from the beginning, they ll just get focused way before they do anything and summoning them is really a trouble. Not to mention how bad 8" are. Besides the uselessness on summoning, having 8" range, pretty much gives a 90% guaranteed successful charge from your opponent next phase.

And I won't even bother commenting on their appearance which might as well be the ugliest GW model to be sold right now..

 

[Boboassa]

Yep, exactly. This is why Salamanders are not really useful right now, not until summoning gets a little bit changed at least. If they are in table from the beginning, they ll just get focused way before they do anything and summoning them is really a trouble. Not to mention how bad 8" are. Besides the uselessness on summoning, having 8" range, pretty much gives a 90% guaranteed successful charge from your opponent next phase.

And I won't even bother commenting on their appearance which might as well be the ugliest GW model to be sold right now..

I hope we'll see some rework on summoning AND the salamanders models soon then

 

[tom ndege]

When I first started warhammer sallies and the stegadon bow were our only artillery... therefore we were strong in cc and top in magic... at the moment I think that completely changed... except for the artillery... i guess everything can shoot further than our guys... and in melee we're also no longer outstanding in any way... well hope that changes with the new release... at least a little bit...

 

[Killer Angel]

Can you summon the salamanders and the handlers at the same time or you have to summon them separately? If you summon the salamanders and then you fail to summon the handlers you have 2 useless salamanders at 9' from the enemy that can shoot at 8' which is pretty useless and weak as a strategy

Then summon firstly the handlers.
IIRC you need a 5, and if you're playing summoning, then you are also playing with a BSB and / or the right constellation, if not a balewind vortex.
Such summons should be trivial.