7th Ed. I Believe in Salamanders Again...

[Gor-rok]

Tried a practice 8th ed. game against Dark Elves based off the store book we tried to memorize (no wizards for the sake of our sanity)...

40- strong block of saurus spears was unimpressive; I'm definitely going the hand weapon/ shield route unless our second rank somehow gets their full attacks. Salamanders, however, went well beyond awesome and fully entered the land of "grossly overpowered".

I'm running on the assumption here that salamanders, being skirmishers, can in fact now march and shoot, so if they really can't it will affect my assessment of them.

The Salamanders basically killed his entire army. Granted, this was after his chariots and black guard and assassins killed all my saurus, but they all got fried in return, and basically couldn't do anything about it as the salamanders ran circles around them. I shouldn't complain too much, but it didn't strike me as particularly fair.

Not getting to strike first on the charge is going to hurt us, and bad. Carnosaur thunder stomp eased the pain a bit in my game, but from what I saw Initiative is going to be right up there with leadership, stat-wise.

On the plus side, hydra isn't as bad now, with his single use of the breath weapon and initiative 2.

 

[Straylight]

<delurk>

40- strong block of saurus spears was unimpressive; I'm definitely going the hand weapon/ shield route unless our second rank somehow gets their full attacks.

Funny enough, a non-horde Saurus unit more than two ranks deep works exactly as well in 8th as it did in 7th- only now we have an incentive to take them in units bigger than 6x2. I expect 6x3 or 7x3 will become more common.

That said, I agree that we'll be seeing HW+shield a lot more often. Remember, however, that the Saurus spears are in addition to the HW, so there's still no real reason to not pay the point to get the option unless you're really hurting for another 20 points somewhere else in the army.

I'm running on the assumption here that salamanders, being skirmishers, can in fact now march and shoot, so if they really can't it will affect my assessment of them.

Yes, they are and yes, they can. Welcome to Lustria, M***********s.

Oh, and they also now have a Stomp attack, should they live that deep into a round of combat.

Remember that Skirmishers in 8th do not have 360 LoS, but can free-reform like fast cav. In addition, the skinks themselves will be able to attack in combat even from behind the sallies.

 

[Kurlin]

<delurk>

40- strong block of saurus spears was unimpressive; I'm definitely going the hand weapon/ shield route unless our second rank somehow gets their full attacks.

Funny enough, a non-horde Saurus unit more than two ranks deep works exactly as well in 8th as it did in 7th- only now we have an incentive to take them in units bigger than 6x2. I expect 6x3 or 7x3 will become more common.

That said, I agree that we'll be seeing HW+shield a lot more often. Remember, however, that the Saurus spears are in addition to the HW, so there's still no real reason to not pay the point to get the option unless you're really hurting for another 20 points somewhere else in the army.

You will probably want 4 ranks if you take spears now. You will want 3 ranks intact for attacks when you finally get into combat. And no HW is not an option anymore if you take spears, if you have an upgrade you must use it in 8th. That is why the TG took a hit because they must use their Halberds.

 

[Straylight]

Ah, so it is. I missed that when reading through the book.

We'll see what the errata says about the TG, then. It would be shame to lose the effective use of such an awesome-looking unit.

 

[Gor-rok]

I'd like to think that the temple guard will still have the option to switch, since the shield and the halberd are both "upgrades" and we don't pay any points to take both.

 

[Straylight]

Doubtful. Upon further review, the text is quite clear on the matter. It isn't an "upgrade," it's a "special weapon," which if a unit has, it must use.

It goes on to elaborate that a unit can only use its hand weapons if it loses it's special weapon for some reason.

Frankly, I hope we get the option to simply not take the halberd, but that's not going to happen in an FAQ and our next army book is years away.

 

[Walgis]

well halberd isnt a special weapon its just a diferent ind of weapon. a ridicoulus situation really necouse GW sell TG only with halberds and shields and both arent posible to vield together but they are vealded together...

 

[Straylight]

A "special weapon" is anything that isn't a hand weapon. The TG can use their shields against ranged attacks, but must wield their halberds two-handed in combat.

 

[Walgis]

i hope it will be erreted becouse halberds are totaly usless IMHO, i never used them exept for weeklings.

 

[DonkeyHotep]

First of all, read the index in the back, Salamanders don't stomp because they aren't monsters, monstrous beasts, or monstrous infantry. They count as war beasts, which also makes them fear fire and be killing blowable.

Temple Guard halberds are pretty amazing in my opinion. The H.W. Shield only gives you +1 to your armor save, so you are twice as likely to take a hit from str 3 already, plate mail is plenty good enough for me as far as armor saves go. The big thing is that if you have 15 temple guard, or toad or whatever filling slots, you are darn near guaranteed to get those 10-15 str 5 hits back, and without striking last.

If all you wanted to do was tank, H.W. might be better, but I think against regular troops the halberd are better. Let's test against marauder Greatswords.

Temple Guard, 16 attacks, kill: 6.66667
Marauders, 11 attacks, kills 3.055
up by 3.6

With shields: 5.33333
T.G. : 2.037
up by 3.3

Hlaberds help against little stuff.

Against high elf spearmen, no horde.
elves, 21 attacks: 2.625
Temple Guard: kill 6.66667

4.04 advantage to T.G.

with shields
Elves: 1.458
T.G. : 4.63

3.17 advantage to T.G.

To your advantage against H.E. spearmen to use the halberds. It's a mix up!

 

[Gor-rok]

What besides salamanders and razordons will be counted as "war beasts"? They seem to be pretty unique as far as their unit setup goes.

As far as temple guard, I never really used them to kill units so much as to hold units in place so something else could, and to make sure nothing got to the Slann. With many of the loss of control miscasts resulting in template hits around the caster, I wonder if we'll see many temple guard at all these days. It's a shame, as I have almost 30 of them.

 

[Eagleblaze]

I've actually started using TG just for 8th ED. The ability to ressurect D3/D6 +1 models in a unit means that TG can become an immense anvil unit. Plus with Lore of Life and cupped hands miscasts aren't that bad.

 

[hellbreaker]

I never really used Temple guard for much else than holding positions and carrying a statue of spite. Hooray for the 10 guardians of spite!

I Believe in Salamanders Again...

Did anyone not believe in Salamanders before?
But they're not getting crush attacks? Well that took away a little of my confidence in them.

Cheers!

 

[Caneghem]

I've actually started using TG just for 8th ED. The ability to ressurect D3/D6 +1 models in a unit means that TG can become an immense anvil unit. Plus with Lore of Life and cupped hands miscasts aren't that bad.

I think people are just overreacting a bit because of the rule that forces you to use the halberds. But the game is changing so drastically with the "stepping up" rules, I think you'd want the halberds anyway. The TG are going to be our killer infantry, especially with the Slann able to buff them with either regen or toughness (should they need it) or to just resurrect them as needed.

I am thinking, just run them 6 wide for the extra attacks, as they are stubborn anyway. They have the potential to be one of the most potent chopping units in the game. I have a setup I want to try out, in a very aggressive list.

Slann BSB (Life), Banner of Bloodlust - Rumination, Mystery, Unfathomable - Cupped hands, Ruby Ring
TG x16 - Champion has Golden Seal Sword (I10), Unit banner has armor piercing, muso
Unit gets 4+ ward vs. magic damage. Ruby ring is in the case of hydras and abombs.

Reroll to hit and getting the -3 armor save, this unit will crush everything in its path. The trick will be going after something worth its time (4+ armor or better). The champion gets to use his shield, and will usually strike first (except vs ASF, but they won't reroll against him). He has 3 attacks, rerollable, str 4 -2 armor. He'll get to challenge something out, strike first and maybe put a wound on it, then get killed probably. But the old Slann can just raise him from the dead for more fun. Armor piercing could be dropped if not proving too useful.

 

[Straylight]

Point of note for DonkeyHotep: your calculations are incorrect for 8th: Halberds are 2-handed weapons (so no shields) and HW + shield has changed: it now does not add to your AS but rather grants a parry save, effectively a 6+ ward.

 

[Walgis]

i though about something like this, TG unit with slann and armour piercing, but im still afraid of loss control, have to see how many i will get in games. last time i played i didnt get any.
the other thing that concerns me is that we lose atacks becouse we have slann in the midlle. if its not erreted we will have very little atacks. but the idea of T8 AS4+ S5 is good, plus D6+1 healing

 

[Gor-rok]

Well, we're only losing out on two temple guard attacks from the Slann being there. The Slann will get his attack, which might get lucky every so often; overall, I don't think it'll be too big of a setback. Of course, if they FAQ him back into the third rank, it's even better.