8th Ed. I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some help?

[Pinktaco]

Played versus my empire friend last night. Was our third game and every time I feel like I have the same issues.

*we play at 2000 points.

1) My opponent always appear to have more units to place than me meaning that he usually wins out on having better placed units (at least that's what it feels like).

2) I generally just suck at placing units. Last night a stranger told us that we played very aggressive by both having our units in the front of the deployment zone. I have little knowledge of how to place my units properly.

3) I also usually feel like I don't have enough efficient combat blocks. 1 unit of 30 saurus with command is pretty much my go to choice. I've tried a skroxigor unit but poor kroxigors and their T4 and AS4+ doesn't seem to be that efficient.
My temple guards usually suffer from Irresistible Force (last game I destroyed my whole unit + the slann by rolling a 1 + 2).

4) I have no clue how to use skinks. Against an army with a lot of high armour save units their poison will do nothing and I dunno how to redirect properly.

5) I'm not sure if I depend too much on my slann. It's not that uncommon for him to be at 400pts and since our limit is 2000pts I find it a to be quite a lot. My opponent will be able to field a lvl 4 wizard with several warrior priests for that amount and if if the dice gods fail me I feel like I'm screwed (last game I rolled 1 +1 in the winds of magic and generated zero extra dice from channeling in the very first turn).

6) I believe my priority of my opponents units might be off. My cavalry head straight for his halbardirs and lost 3 models before their first swing lol...

7) My last army consisted of 30 saurus with command, 20 templeguards with scar vet, 5 CoC + cowboy, skink chief on terradon, 2 units of 10 skink skirmishers and an ancient stegadon.

my opponent fielded 3 demigryphs, a steam tank, 30 halbadirs, 17 great swords with BSB and Warrior Priest, 10 inner circle knights with some lord who had Runefang + warrior priest, 1 cannon and 10 gunmen.

I find it impossible for me to not get charged by the IC knights and my TGs where unlucky to get a double charge by the chicken knights and great swords (lame mistake by me). The steam tank pretty much just roflstomps whatever it comes nearby. Needless to say I was decimated, especially after Irresistible force on my part <.<

I find the high amount of good amour save units to be a tough nut to crack. My saurus units where charged by his IC knights and lost something like 13 units on the charge. When they finally get to attack they get something like 1 wound through. The steam tank I have no clue what to do with and while I generally don't fear the chicken knights however, they're still there providing good damage and good armour saves.

* I've read the various tactica versus Empire and I generally don't find myself learning much more. I'm not seeking a bulletproof army, just help to not get utterly slaughtered again.

 

[n810]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

Ugh, yoo are playing agains a very nasty list, I can see why you are frustated.
yea, those demigryphs are aboung the best units in warhammer and the steam tank isn't too far behind.
since he seems ti run a lot of armor, pehaps try out the lore of metal ?
as far a targets, ye harlbredrs where a poor choice for our cav, stay away from high strengh units if possible, they will negate a lot of your armor. better to throw kroxogors against them.
Try and get the charge against the knight to get rid of their lance bonus (happen when they charge).
Perhaps add some ripper dactal units to take care of the knight...
as far as the steam tank goes... that is one seriously tough unit to kill, you might have some luck
with a scarvet with a high strenght weapon and a bunch of armor and ward saves.

 

[Prof]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

as far as the steam tank goes... that is one seriously tough unit to kill, you might have some luck
with a scarvet with a high strenght weapon and a bunch of armor and ward saves.

My brother plays Empire with a steam tank. I've had some luck with temple guard and the razor standard, but you are screwed if it charges you and delivers it's impact hits.
I agree - he will find lore of metal scary!

 

[Spiney Norman]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

Well first of all, your opponent is fielding a fairly competitive list, Demigriff knights and the stank particularly are petty overpowered, and we all know about the cannon, so don't feel too bad about getting beat.

What spells are you taking on your Slann? I would advise wandering deliberations, searing doom will be vital for taking out high armour save units like the steam tank and IC knights and miasma will be able to swing combats in your favour.

You will need a strategy for dealing with the cannon, my favoured approach would be either 8-9 chameleon skinks, scouting forward and shooting them full of poison, or a squad of ripperdactyls to vangard up and tear into it in combat.

In terms of army construction I personally dislike 2000pts because it feels like one Saurus block is not enough, but you don't really have enough points to bring a second, I usually end up with two units of 24.

The other things I would strongly advise would be ancient stegs and Salamanders, a couple of sallies can wreak utter havoc in his troop blocks and ancient stegs with sharpened horns can make a mess of any Monstrous cavalry, and even the stank.

If you ask me your list looks ok, in terms of deployment I would put the Saurus & temple guard in the centre and post the Saurus cavalry and stegs on the flanks. Don't slam the Saurus cavalry into the front of an enemy unit, send them round the flanks instead, that way you'll only take a single rank of attacks rather than 2-3. If there are any characters in the fighting rank be sure to challenge them with your scar vet, or in the case of the runefang lord challenge with the champion to contain him.

 

[Pofadder]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

As far as tactica for playing redirector or double flee with your chaff units I suggest reading the Ulthuan.net eagle tactica, maybe someone has the link to post in this thread.

You can use the same principles with your skinks, only make adjustments to compensate for the fact their positioning is for a flying unit, so they place their eagles pretty close to enemy units. I use my skinks a bit further away in case I am planning to flee & rally (hopefully).

Also remember not only skinks, but sallies, razordons in single units can be awesome at redirecting if you are in a pinch and need to prevent the 2nd unit from completing a double charge against you as example.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

Well first of all, your opponent is fielding a fairly competitive list, Demigriff knights and the stank particularly are petty overpowered, and we all know about the cannon, so don't feel too bad about getting beat.

What spells are you taking on your Slann? I would advise wandering deliberations, searing doom will be vital for taking out high armour save units like the steam tank and IC knights and miasma will be able to swing combats in your favour.

I went with high magic and wanted searing doom instantly but lol random shitty winds of magic prevented me. From now on I'll probably just auto-include Lore of Metal - I know it's very dangerous, but I also find it somewhat limiting.

You will need a strategy for dealing with the cannon, my favoured approach would be either 8-9 chameleon skinks, scouting forward and shooting them full of poison, or a squad of ripperdactyls to vangard up and tear into it in combat.

I've used rippers before, however this time I went with a single Skink Chief and it actually went well. He was there by turn two and did his job.

In terms of army construction I personally dislike 2000pts because it feels like one Saurus block is not enough, but you don't really have enough points to bring a second, I usually end up with two units of 24.

THIS. So much this. I haven't yet played with 2500pts due to money and lack of models, but of lawd how I feel restricted. I'll try the 2 x 24 units of saurus warriors though.

The other things I would strongly advise would be ancient stegs and Salamanders, a couple of sallies can wreak utter havoc in his troop blocks and ancient stegs with sharpened horns can make a mess of any Monstrous cavalry, and even the stank.

I'll probably bring an A-steg again with horns (always do anyway) and try with some sallies. He haven't used greatswords before, but since he's doing that now I might have some fun with the salamanders.

If you ask me your list looks ok, in terms of deployment I would put the Saurus & temple guard in the centre and post the Saurus cavalry and stegs on the flanks. Don't slam the Saurus cavalry into the front of an enemy unit, send them round the flanks instead, that way you'll only take a single rank of attacks rather than 2-3. If there are any characters in the fighting rank be sure to challenge them with your scar vet, or in the case of the runefang lord challenge with the champion to contain him.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

Does the charmed shield work against a Canon?

 

[n810]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

I believe so.

 

[Lizardmen_Jeff]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

Yes, the order goes: hit-wound-multiply wound

So if the first hit is from a cannonball, its discarded on a 2+

If he were to shoot at say a slamander and the shot was transfered to a skink handler ,the cannonball would wound the single skink handler and then multiply. since the handler only has a single wound any additional wounds casued by the cannonball (d6) would be lost

 

[Mr Phat]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

If he were to shoot at say a slamander and the shot was transfered to a skink handler ,the cannonball would wound the single skink handler and then multiply. since the handler only has a single wound any additional wounds casued by the cannonball (d6) would be lost

which would kill the handler, and let the cannonball bounce on, right?

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

I believe so.

I believe I've found amy new toy for my war machine hunting chief. Does he also gain frenzy from a ripper?

 

[sirkently]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

I believe so.

I believe I've found amy new toy for my war machine hunting chief. Does he also gain frenzy from a ripper?

No, frenzy is ripper only.

 

[olderplayer]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

I agree lore of metal is a logical solution to the stank and empire knights (demi and ic an reik). However, you should learn to play an all-comers list and beat empire heads up. That would suggest choosing knowing all signature spells (Wandering Deliberations) instead of loremaster High Magic (which is cheaper anyway and easier to cast with lower casting costs). The base lore of death spell and lore of metal spell will both be very effective against the stank and demigryphs. Miasma at the boosted level can be used to cut down the range and reduce ability of the demigryph knights to hit. Earth blood gives the TG or Saurus unit regen and can recover a lost wound. Wyssans is awesome on saurus or TG units.

Also, Lizardmen are very good at 2400 or 2500 points but a bit weaker at 2000 points especially in a matchup with Empire.


Temple Guard are quite effective if they can either survice the first round of combat or get the charge.

I like the idea of running a skink priest with lore of beasts and a dispel scroll in a unit of skink skirmishers. he can extend the range of the slann's direct damage and magic missle spells and the free reform and march and shoot abilities of the skirmishers is very useful in getting them where they need to be without them getting charged. They are still vulnerable to magic spells but you cna learn to deal with that as well. Look at a Lore of Beasts with the signature spell to boost them or the saurus unit to be able to max wound rates and cut through the Armour save better. A lvl 2 skink priest with amber spear is also quite effective, especially boosted. You need at least S5 or S6 to really hurt knights and the stank.

Learn to use cheap units of skink skirmiishers or skink cohorts in small units to move and shoot and bait and flee and force failed charges by the knights or to take charges to set up the knights for being charged. Also, skink cohorts are useful in taking a charge and redirecting or holding up something.

Charging a small unit of skrox into a steam tank is a good option both for tying it up and wearing it down with wounds and runinig a skink cohort unit with a single Krox is an interesting option.

As for $$$, I try to buy some from the FLGS but also recommend ebay. Sometimes you can pick up models on a discount there. and whole armies for half off.

 

[Rhodium]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

If he were to shoot at say a slamander and the shot was transfered to a skink handler ,the cannonball would wound the single skink handler and then multiply. since the handler only has a single wound any additional wounds casued by the cannonball (d6) would be lost

which would kill the handler, and let the cannonball bounce on, right?

Given the wording of the rule,

The monstrous beast (salamander) is hit
The MB is not slain
Therefore the cannonball stops

Even though a skink took the hit and the fluff doesn't really support that, the rules do

 

[Lizardmen_Jeff]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

If he were to shoot at say a slamander and the shot was transfered to a skink handler ,the cannonball would wound the single skink handler and then multiply. since the handler only has a single wound any additional wounds casued by the cannonball (d6) would be lost

which would kill the handler, and let the cannonball bounce on, right?

Given the wording of the rule,

The monstrous beast (salamander) is hit
The MB is not slain
Therefore the cannonball stops

Even though a skink took the hit and the fluff doesn't really support that, the rules do

That is my understanding as well, bc the sally is not slain the skink handler basically pulls out his catchers mit and takes one for the team

cannon -> <- Skink handler

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

So based on feedback from you guys and my own experience how do you think this would fare against my friend?

Lord:

Slann 8 sig spells, BSB + discipline banner, etheral descipline (I personally prefer to have him alone, but we'll see how it goes).

Hero:

Cowboy with GW, dawnstone and gamblers armour.
Skink chief on terradon (or maybe ripper) with charmed shield and spear for war machine hunting.

Core:

24 saurus warrior (spear) with banner.
24 saurus warrior (spear) with banner.

Special:

22 Templeguards with armour piercing banner.

Rare:

Ancient Stegadon with sharpened horns.
2 x salamanders with snack.


So the idea was that my saurus warriors would fight together (one front and one in the flank or something like that). Skink go after cannon. Cowboy to take on whatever I feel needs support. Salamanders to roast regular units like great swords and halbadirs while the templeguards will shred demigryphs to pieces. Tank I have no idea, but hopefully I can get searing doom on it and melt that fucker.

Overall I want my slann to be aggressive. I want him to kill as much as he can before it hits me. Steg and cowboy will help out where it's needed which they can provide with their superior speed (compared to the slow moving saurus warriors/TP).

I haven't quite counted the points as the list is, but it should be right about 2000pts.

*Also - I like my chief since he can deal out some damage and with the charmed shield he can take a cannon if my buddy decides to do so. I enjoyed using him the last time and he's cheaper than a regular terradon unit and probably gets similar amount of wounds off.

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

Saurus aren't great flankers, due to their movement 4. So I don't really recommend the strategy you described.

The Ancient Stegadon, on the other hand, is a great flanker. So is a unit of 6 Kroxigor (as they are also movement 6, and their S7 attacks tear through armor). If you ran one of each, you could pair them with your two Saurus blocks. Then when something challenges your Saurus, the associated flanker can mince it.

Incidentally, I disagree about running 24 Saurus arranged 6x4. I would run 25 Saurus arranged 5x5. The reason is, the Saurus aren't going to win combat by killing the opposing unit - that's what your flankers are for. The extra couple of attacks is less important than being steadfast for longer, and breaking opposing steadfast more reliably. The combat doesn't end when your Saurus have killed off all the opposing models, it ends when the Ancient Stegadon slams into the side of the opposing unit, doing impact hits, stomps, S6 regular attacks, and giving you a charge + flank bonus. When that happens, if the opponent has fewer ranks than you, he will not be steadfast and will break. It doesn't really matter how many Saurus he kills in the meantime; as long you have more ranks, you will hold due to steadfast.

My advice is to use your Scar-Vet to hold off the Demigryphs for a few turns, and sic your Slann on the Steam Tank. Send the salamanders after anything squishy, send the chief after any artillery. For the rest of the units, try to create at least 1 combat when you break the opponent as described above. After 1 unit breaks and gets run down, it creates a domino effect, because your newly freed up units can now regroup to help the guys still in combat.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

There's one issue though. Are you suggesting to skip the templeguards and go kroxigors instead? so I would have 2 x 25 saurus and use my M6 units (krox and steg) as flankers?

 

[Padre]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

So based on feedback from you guys and my own experience how do you think this would fare against my friend?

Lord:

Slann 8 sig spells, BSB + discipline banner, etheral descipline (I personally prefer to have him alone, but we'll see how it goes).

Hero:

Cowboy with GW, dawnstone and gamblers armour.
Skink chief on terradon (or maybe ripper) with charmed shield and spear for war machine hunting.

Core:

24 saurus warrior (spear) with banner.
24 saurus warrior (spear) with banner.

Special:

22 Templeguards with armour piercing banner.

Rare:

Ancient Stegadon with sharpened horns.
2 x salamanders with snack.


So the idea was that my saurus warriors would fight together (one front and one in the flank or something like that). Skink go after cannon. Cowboy to take on whatever I feel needs support. Salamanders to roast regular units like great swords and halbadirs while the templeguards will shred demigryphs to pieces. Tank I have no idea, but hopefully I can get searing doom on it and melt that I swear too much.

Overall I want my slann to be aggressive. I want him to kill as much as he can before it hits me. Steg and cowboy will help out where it's needed which they can provide with their superior speed (compared to the slow moving saurus warriors/TP).

I haven't quite counted the points as the list is, but it should be right about 2000pts.

*Also - I like my chief since he can deal out some damage and with the charmed shield he can take a cannon if my buddy decides to do so. I enjoyed using him the last time and he's cheaper than a regular terradon unit and probably gets similar amount of wounds off.

That's quite close to what I normally run. The advice to run blocks of 25 for the Saurus and TG is quite good. Also, I might take another look at Lore of Metal. I'd be tempted to run a LoM Slann in a take-all-comers list. There are better lores, but it is by no means the worst one for us. All but two spells in the list can be highly effective and those other two are situational at worst. Glittering Robe buffs our Skinks a little bit and Golden Hounds has some situational uses. (For example, it would be perfect for messing up an Empire Captain on Pegasus.)

Padre

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: I apparently have no clue how to play, can I get some he

@Padre - if it's not too bothersome could you tell the difference of what I presented and what you usually use?

While I'll mostly be playing versus my friends the next many games I would be happy to have a decent all-comers list.

While I can see that LoM is an efficient lore, I somewhat prefer the 8 sig. spells. They still supply you with anti armour spells along with buffs and other spells that can put some hurt on the opponent. It's kind of hard to descripe, but while I haven't played that much I often times find myself lacking the spells I would've loved to have. With WD it appers to be more of my preference, especially since it offers all kinds of spells.

One question though - if I go with WD do I get the lore attributes when I use a particular lore?