AoS How to beat Stormcast?

[Kilvakar]

So I just had my first experience playing against Stormcast, and it was a complete slaughter. My opponent's list was this:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord-Veritant (155)
- General
Lord-Arcanum (155)
Lord-Exorcist (170)
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)
Vandus Hammerhand (205)
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)

Battleline
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
Drops: 9

My list was:

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Beast Master
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)
- General
- War Spear
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
- Mount Trait: Beastmaster
Lord Kroak (430)
Skink Starpriest (130)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)
- Spell: Extend Astomatrix

Battleline
30 x Skinks (225)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Saurus Guard (230)
- Reinforced x 1
Stegadon (265)
- Weapon: Skystreak Bow

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (250)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 109
Drops: 8

We played on the new tiny board size on the Savage Gains battleplan. I made him go first on turn one, and got the double-turn, but I could not do *ANYTHING* against any of his units. They were all on 3+ saves, all had ward saves because Hammers of Sigmar and being near objectives.

There were some bad rolls involved, but I did not take out a single unit before conceding on turn 3. My Bastiladon managed to take down 7 Liberators in one unit after 2 full rounds of double-shooting into them, but my 30 Skinks buffed with Hand of Glory and the Starpriest's failed to kill a unit of 10 Liberators and all died to battleshock at the end of turn 2. My Stegadon failed to kill Vandus Hammerhand after him taking some mortal wounds from the Realmshaper and Comet's Call. He needed to do 4 damage and he only did 3 with all of his melee attacks, and he failed the roll for Stomp after the charge.

My Carnosaur, fully buffed with Beastmaster, Prime Warbeast and Finest Hour did 3 damage to the Lord Exorcist. Bastian rolled crazy high and nuked Kroak with 6 mortal wounds from his lightning ability and he died to the random roll after that.

A unit of 10 Saurus Guard buffed with the exploding 6's command ability from my Carnosaur could not kill Yndrasta after making her roll something like 12 saves.

So in the heat of the moment, I'm certainly frustrated. But now I'm wondering, since I'm planning on going to a tournament next month, if I cannot even beat a random Stormcast list, how should I plan to deal with them (and other super-tanky armies like Nurgle, and SoB) in a potentially more competitive environment?

I do realize that I should have hung back and tried to get another round of shooting in before charging, but with lots of weakened units I thought that I would be able to do more damage in melee, especially with all my buffs. But since literally every units in SCE was on a 3+ save with a 4+ or 6+ ward save, there was just nothing I could do.

So, using a non-Salamander spammy list, what are people doing to counteract the high saves and high rend and damage of Stormcast?

 

[Erta Wanderer]

So I just had my first experience playing against Stormcast, and it was a complete slaughter. My opponent's list was this:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord-Veritant (155)
- General
Lord-Arcanum (155)
Lord-Exorcist (170)
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)
Vandus Hammerhand (205)
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)

Battleline
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
Drops: 9

wow that is not a good stormcast list

We played on the new tiny board size on the Savage Gains battleplan. I made him go first on turn one, and got the double-turn, but I could not do *ANYTHING* against any of his units. They were all on 3+ saves, all had ward saves because Hammers of Sigmar and being near objectives.

There were some bad rolls involved, but I did not take out a single unit before conceding on turn 3. My Bastiladon managed to take down 7 Liberators in one unit after 2 full rounds of double-shooting into them, but my 30 Skinks buffed with Hand of Glory and the Starpriest's failed to kill a unit of 10 Liberators and all died to battleshock at the end of turn 2. My Stegadon failed to kill Vandus Hammerhand after him taking some mortal wounds from the Realmshaper and Comet's Call. He needed to do 4 damage and he only did 3 with all of his melee attacks, and he failed the roll for Stomp after the charge.

ooph thats tuff. you really need to hold onto a CP for battle shock when you run coalesced.

My Carnosaur, fully buffed with Beastmaster, Prime Warbeast and Finest Hour did 3 damage to the Lord Exorcist.

not surprised

Bastian rolled crazy high and nuked Kroak with 6 mortal wounds from his lightning ability and he died to the random roll after that.

well that's just bad luck kroak would have been your best bet againsed this list.

A unit of 10 Saurus Guard buffed with the exploding 6's command ability from my Carnosaur could not kill Yndrasta after making her roll something like 12 saves.

well yeah guard are worse then warriors and warriors are not a good damage unit.

So in the heat of the moment, I'm certainly frustrated. But now I'm wondering, since I'm planning on going to a tournament next month, if I cannot even beat a random Stormcast list, how should I plan to deal with them (and other super-tanky armies like Nurgle, and SoB) in a potentially more competitive environment?

a few things. first you need to cut the fat out of your army. you don't need 10 guard, the star seer would be better as a normal priest and it's best to drop the carnasuar all together if you want to be "competitive".

I do realize that I should have hung back and tried to get another round of shooting in before charging, but with lots of weakened units I thought that I would be able to do more damage in melee, especially with all my buffs. But since literally every units in SCE was on a 3+ save with a 4+ or 6+ ward save, there was just nothing I could do.

yeah this was not a melee list your goal should have been to kite them the entire game

So, using a non-Salamander spammy list, what are people doing to counteract the high saves and high rend and damage of Stormcast?

ok so not salamanders. lets see first be aware that this is NOT a competitive SCE list those are either longstrike crossbows, fulminators or sequitrs second we have no rend so your intire build needs to focus on mortals i know it's tuff but it's true. a EotG with arcane tomb and curse is your best friend at the moment. mix that with 2x30 skinks or 4x5 knight,s SPs, and a ton of chaff. kroak can work just know that long strikes will kill him turn one. lastly remember stormcast are very low bodies you don't need to charge or kill to take a point from them just walking on with skinks and standing 3" away will get you the OB point. and screen screen screen.

 

[Kilvakar]

Thanks as always for the excellent advice

I'm not opposed to bringing Salamanders, just not able to spam them since I only have 3 of the actual models right now, lol! Still, I think I should add at least one reinforced unit, which I will probably do.

I do definitely realize that I should have attempted to just kite them and recoup on objective points in turns 4-5, they were a pretty slow army except Vandus and Yndrasta. I do know from past experience that Seraphon don't like to charge into melee until they absolutely have to. I'll post in my tournament thread in the advice section my new list I'm currently thinking of.

You're right about 10 Guard and the Carnosaur not being competitive. This was a casual game, but I was still surprised at how terribly I did. Granted, there were a lot of low rolls on my part and lots of 6's rolled for the Stormcast, which happens. But I am attempting to get some practice in against new armies before I play in a tournament, but I'd like to start attending those now that they're starting up again at my local stores.

 

[Just A Skink]

ok so not salamanders. lets see first be aware that this is NOT a competitive SCE list those are either longstrike crossbows, fulminators or sequitrs second we have no rend so your intire build needs to focus on mortals i know it's tuff but it's true. a EotG with arcane tomb and curse is your best friend at the moment. mix that with 2x30 skinks or 4x5 knight,s SPs, and a ton of chaff. kroak can work just know that long strikes will kill him turn one. lastly remember stormcast are very low bodies you don't need to charge or kill to take a point from them just walking on with skinks and standing 3" away will get you the OB point. and screen screen screen.

Isn't this a little tougher to do with a Stormkeep, which this SCE army was? Each model counts as 3 models I think, right?

 

[Kilvakar]

They count as three models turn 3 and beyond, I believe. So after I failed to shift any of them by turn 3 I knew I'd lost. But the gist of what I learned is that our no rend or rend 1 attacks do next to nothing against a 3+ save, so mortal wounds is the only way to kill stuff. Also, don't charge unless you absolutely have to, lol!

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Isn't this a little tougher to do with a Stormkeep, which this SCE army was? Each model counts as 3 models I think, right?

it is but most competitive players don't run stormkeep. it's not the meta way to run SCE.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

They count as three models turn 3 and beyond, I believe. So after I failed to shift any of them by turn 3 I knew I'd lost. But the gist of what I learned is that our no rend or rend 1 attacks do next to nothing against a 3+ save, so mortal wounds is the only way to kill stuff. Also, don't charge unless you absolutely have to, lol!

rend one is fine but we don't have access to good rend one attacks. phoenix guard are rend one and they would SHREAD this list.

 

[Kilvakar]

rend one is fine but we don't have access to good rend one attacks. phoenix guard are rend one and they would SHREAD this list.

True, but they also have much better stats all-around. When most of your attacks whiff because your profiles are all 4s and 5s, having no rend or rend -1 hurts a lot. But here's the list I'm thinking of trying out next:

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Beast Master
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Celestant-Prime, Hammer of Sigmar (325)*
- Allies
Engine of the Gods (265)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Cloak of Feathers
- Mount Trait: Beastmaster
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
Slann Starmaster (265)*
- Spell: Celestial Apotheosis
Skink Starpriest (130)*
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
- Spell: Hand of Glory

Battleline
5 x Saurus Guard (115)*
10 x Skinks (75)
- Moonstone Clubs & Star bucklers
10 x Skinks (75)
- Moonstone Clubs & Star bucklers

Units
2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (280)
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Kroxigor (150)*

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (250)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
*Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 325 / 400
Wounds: 95
Drops: 10

I'm leaning towards the Celestant Prime because I have a proxy model for it, but I also could field just about any other Seraphon units in his place. I'm also wondering what other battalion I could fit in here, maybe the battle regiment for fewer drops?

 

[Lord Krungharr]

I still haven't played with my Seraphon yet, but I've played against them... and against current Stormcast several times, and they are indeed a tough pickle. They have SOOO many tools in their boxes, often super rendy with extra MW and tough saves AND they can deepstrike anything.

Salamanders worked super well vs my Sons of Behemat when I faced them, seems like a solid pick there. Kroxigors running with some Skinks seems good too for the hit bonus but maybe another Bastiladon instead, keeping them close together in the center as a firebase, with Lifeswarm right behind for healing as needed. Summoning units around for buffer zones and objective grabbers. I think a mobile castle is needed, like a magic onion, many layers.

Should you run into the Longstrikes or other shootyness, a Prismatic Palisade could work if they are not deepstriking in. Then you can cast spells using LOS from a different Seraphon of some sort right? Thought I saw that somewhere on the warscrolls in the app.

I would definitely recommend a Battle Regiment if you have the units to fill it. Might as well compete for the low drops.

 

[Tav]

That kind of a stormcast list is more of an attrition with high wounds ands saves. The usual strategy of targeting down and killing a unit does not work the same into it.
A more ideal way to play is to try and pick apart any buffs the unit has but mainly play for area denial. The longer things like your skinks are around the better, so best not to buff them and throw them as they will simply bounce

 

[Kilvakar]

That kind of a stormcast list is more of an attrition with high wounds ands saves. The usual strategy of targeting down and killing a unit does not work the same into it.
A more ideal way to play is to try and pick apart any buffs the unit has but mainly play for area denial. The longer things like your skinks are around the better, so best not to buff them and throw them as they will simply bounce

This is exactly what happened. Everything bounced. I failed to kill a single unit over three turns of shooting and melee. Is it a meta-defining list? No. But it certainly opened my eyes to how weak our volume of attacks strategy is against defensive armies. Our hit/wound profiles are bad, and on things that do have a 3/3 profile you're usually only getting a couple attacks. The meta (outside Nurgle and SoB) is generally focused on alpha striking or shooting your enemies to death in the first couple of turns, so our shooting does well against those glass cannons. But if you're only getting 2-3 wounds through against a target on a 3+ save, you're not going to do any damage.

Just makes me hope that with our new book we either get buff-stacking back with most buffs being useable for free rather than being CAs, or we get warscroll buffs and better allegiance abilities.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

This is exactly what happened. Everything bounced. I failed to kill a single unit over three turns of shooting and melee. Is it a meta-defining list? No. But it certainly opened my eyes to how weak our volume of attacks strategy is against defensive armies. Our hit/wound profiles are bad, and on things that do have a 3/3 profile you're usually only getting a couple attacks. The meta (outside Nurgle and SoB) is generally focused on alpha striking or shooting your enemies to death in the first couple of turns, so our shooting does well against those glass cannons. But if you're only getting 2-3 wounds through against a target on a 3+ save, you're not going to do any damage.

Just makes me hope that with our new book we either get buff-stacking back with most buffs being useable for free rather than being CAs, or we get warscroll buffs and better allegiance abilities.

im hoping we get aura buffs. each of our heroes giving a separate buff/debuff wholly within 12"/9"

 

[Kilvakar]

im hoping we get aura buffs. each of our heroes giving a separate buff/debuff wholly within 12"/9"

That would be great! Some auras of battleshock immunity, bonuses to hit, extra rend, +1 attacks, etc. would be amazing and would fit the hero-reliant playstyle that Seraphon had in 2e. I still think we'll need warscroll buffs for a lot of units, but this would be a nice way of giving us some strong buffs without making us Stormcast where every hero gets to throw out 2-3 buffs a turn for free.

 

[Putzfrau]

So I just had my first experience playing against Stormcast, and it was a complete slaughter. My opponent's list was this:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord-Veritant (155)
- General
Lord-Arcanum (155)
Lord-Exorcist (170)
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)
Vandus Hammerhand (205)
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)

Battleline
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Liberators (230)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 2x Grandweapons
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
Drops: 9

My list was:

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Beast Master
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)
- General
- War Spear
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
- Mount Trait: Beastmaster
Lord Kroak (430)
Skink Starpriest (130)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)
- Spell: Extend Astomatrix

Battleline
30 x Skinks (225)
- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Saurus Guard (230)
- Reinforced x 1
Stegadon (265)
- Weapon: Skystreak Bow

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (250)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 109
Drops: 8

We played on the new tiny board size on the Savage Gains battleplan. I made him go first on turn one, and got the double-turn, but I could not do *ANYTHING* against any of his units. They were all on 3+ saves, all had ward saves because Hammers of Sigmar and being near objectives.

There were some bad rolls involved, but I did not take out a single unit before conceding on turn 3. My Bastiladon managed to take down 7 Liberators in one unit after 2 full rounds of double-shooting into them, but my 30 Skinks buffed with Hand of Glory and the Starpriest's failed to kill a unit of 10 Liberators and all died to battleshock at the end of turn 2. My Stegadon failed to kill Vandus Hammerhand after him taking some mortal wounds from the Realmshaper and Comet's Call. He needed to do 4 damage and he only did 3 with all of his melee attacks, and he failed the roll for Stomp after the charge.

My Carnosaur, fully buffed with Beastmaster, Prime Warbeast and Finest Hour did 3 damage to the Lord Exorcist. Bastian rolled crazy high and nuked Kroak with 6 mortal wounds from his lightning ability and he died to the random roll after that.

A unit of 10 Saurus Guard buffed with the exploding 6's command ability from my Carnosaur could not kill Yndrasta after making her roll something like 12 saves.

So in the heat of the moment, I'm certainly frustrated. But now I'm wondering, since I'm planning on going to a tournament next month, if I cannot even beat a random Stormcast list, how should I plan to deal with them (and other super-tanky armies like Nurgle, and SoB) in a potentially more competitive environment?

I do realize that I should have hung back and tried to get another round of shooting in before charging, but with lots of weakened units I thought that I would be able to do more damage in melee, especially with all my buffs. But since literally every units in SCE was on a 3+ save with a 4+ or 6+ ward save, there was just nothing I could do.

So, using a non-Salamander spammy list, what are people doing to counteract the high saves and high rend and damage of Stormcast?

Honestly it just sounds like you want too hard too fast. Maybe could have focused the damage a bit more. Your list has a ton of mortal potential, you should be able to pick up the libs pretty easy. Bastian you can just stay away from he's so slow. Imo just a bit more patient with when you engage and you'll probably see a big difference. And area denial like tav said. Your faster so you should be able to put more of your stuff into less of his stuff, and ranged so you can still threaten while being on a side objective.

Not sure how kroak died with 10 Guard in your list, he would have been your clutch piece to help grind out the midgame. Personally id find a way to get an engine in, it's so good and so much fun. Plopping down saurus will never not be super satisfying. And just more mortals.

Anyways, it can definitely be frustrating but losing is how we all get better. It takes practice to understand a matchup and target priorities. Nothing wrong with needing some reps to get it right.

Helps me to just think of it as it was always my fault. No list or dice luck, just me playing badly and what can I do differently from a gameplay perspective. I lose a lot so it's a lot of chances to get better

Edit: carnos are awesome! I run one in my tournament list there are better choices but they are certainly very efficient for what you get. Don't feel like you have to take him out of the list if you don't want to.

 

[Tav]

This is exactly what happened. Everything bounced. I failed to kill a single unit over three turns of shooting and melee. Is it a meta-defining list? No. But it certainly opened my eyes to how weak our volume of attacks strategy is against defensive armies. Our hit/wound profiles are bad, and on things that do have a 3/3 profile you're usually only getting a couple attacks. The meta (outside Nurgle and SoB) is generally focused on alpha striking or shooting your enemies to death in the first couple of turns, so our shooting does well against those glass cannons. But if you're only getting 2-3 wounds through against a target on a 3+ save, you're not going to do any damage.

Just makes me hope that with our new book we either get buff-stacking back with most buffs being useable for free rather than being CAs, or we get warscroll buffs and better allegiance abilities.

Its not really an issue of the book. Its still one of if not the strongest army, mainly due to the ability to adapt to whatever the meta puts down.

it is simply a case of recognising win conditions and knowing when to go in hard and when to adopt a more passive and defensive playstyle.
against many armies you can win by simply moving forward and rolling the dice provided but that doesn’t work in every game, and it shouldn’t