8th Ed. How reliant are we of a good magic phase?

[Pinktaco]

Title says it all. With our last book in 8th edition we, from what I can understand, dominated the magic phase and were thus ridiculously overpowered.

So here's the question: how reliant are we as a faction of magic? Can we perfectly well perfom (and still be competitive!) without it or does our weaknesses rely on a magic phase that favor us?

What's your opinion on the matter

 

[n810]

It' entirely possible to make a decent Lizardmen army with little to no magic phase.
Especially this edition we have quite a few monsters with bound spells
also you could get away with just a skink priest ot two.

 

[Dreyer]

Still think we are pretty reliant on our Slann, A wandering deliberation slann helps a lot with high armor save units, ethereals, other skirmishers and so on.
I generally consider Lizardmen an answers army, by that I mean that we are generally dont have anything to field that changes how people build their lists to answer, we are instead the guys that have to build our lists to be able to answer all the obscene things some of the other armies can do. The slann helps a lot in this regard, giving redundant answers to many of the hard to answer things that other armies can field.

 

[VampTeddy]

I personally think the reliance on a Slann is something that's been inherited through so many books we're having a hard time not seeing him as a must-have.

Compared to a Carno-oldie yes he is probably more competitive, but the carno-oldie brings his own weight to the table, in the form of a vicious combat monster.

if we go and take a more fun approach, i actually think there's merit in using 2-3 Oldie-coldies. They have a 2+ armor save before buying anything else, and can hold up stuff way bigger and badder than they are, even kill them too.

With the ability to go with beasts on skink priests and the fact that we still have 2 Dispel scrolls of sorts, i think it's a lack of wanting to try, more than a lack of ability to go without, that makes everyone agree magic is so important to us.

I'm going to test these things once my league reaches the kinda points where i can go with a carno, or several Oldie-coldies.


The slann IS competitive, very much so, i just don't think he outshines everything else so heavily any longer.

 

[Dreyer]

I personally think the reliance on a Slann is something that's been inherited through so many books we're having a hard time not seeing him as a must-have.

Compared to a Carno-oldie yes he is probably more competitive, but the carno-oldie brings his own weight to the table, in the form of a vicious combat monster.

if we go and take a more fun approach, i actually think there's merit in using 2-3 Oldie-coldies. They have a 2+ armor save before buying anything else, and can hold up stuff way bigger and badder than they are, even kill them too.

With the ability to go with beasts on skink priests and the fact that we still have 2 Dispel scrolls of sorts, i think it's a lack of wanting to try, more than a lack of ability to go without, that makes everyone agree magic is so important to us.

I'm going to test these things once my league reaches the kinda points where i can go with a carno, or several Oldie-coldies.


The slann IS competitive, very much so, I just don't think he outshines everything else so heavily any longer.

Carnosaur has never done anything for me but maybe other people are having more luck with him. And sure you can do a couple of Oldblood on coldones but you can do the same in the in the hero slot with scarvets and still have room for a Slann.
Is the Slann a MUST pick? if I wanna give my self the best chance of winning then yes, if not I can leave him at home. I certainly know that the people I usually play with would love if I fielded the Carnosaur more often, then their cannons will actually have something worthwhile to shoot at

 

[VampTeddy]

I personally think the reliance on a Slann is something that's been inherited through so many books we're having a hard time not seeing him as a must-have.

Compared to a Carno-oldie yes he is probably more competitive, but the carno-oldie brings his own weight to the table, in the form of a vicious combat monster.

if we go and take a more fun approach, i actually think there's merit in using 2-3 Oldie-coldies. They have a 2+ armor save before buying anything else, and can hold up stuff way bigger and badder than they are, even kill them too.

With the ability to go with beasts on skink priests and the fact that we still have 2 Dispel scrolls of sorts, i think it's a lack of wanting to try, more than a lack of ability to go without, that makes everyone agree magic is so important to us.

I'm going to test these things once my league reaches the kinda points where i can go with a carno, or several Oldie-coldies.


The slann IS competitive, very much so, I just don't think he outshines everything else so heavily any longer.

Carnosaur has never done anything for me but maybe other people are having more luck with him. And sure you can do a couple of Oldblood on coldones but you can do the same in the in the hero slot with scarvets and still have room for a Slann.
Is the Slann a MUST pick? if I wanna give my self the best chance of winning then yes, if not I can leave him at home. I certainly know that the people I usually play with would love if I fielded the Carnosaur more often, then their cannons will actually have something worthwhile to shoot at

Actually looking at the Cowboy math over in the Tactics forum i'd argue that i can't do the same with scarvets in the hero slots. An oldblood wil simply hold out longer, and can be outfitted to do both that AND hit hard, well harder anyways.

I agree that the Slann is still more competitive, but i don't see him as a necessity.

The dual Oldblood start opens up to fun things like mass chiefs or several mounted chiefs, more than one priest, i even think you can get enough priests to fill up both Heavens and Beasts spells at 2500 points (if you want that for some reason).

On the note of the OP.

I think we're as reliant on our magic phase as we make ourselves - Yes the Slann is competitive, we all know that, but have we even tested the rest of the models enough to make an educated guess as to how competitive they are? I intend to, and i intend to lose gladly if i fail, or win very triumphantly if i am succesful.


I want to make Slann-less tests with Dual-carnos, Large Razordon units, Large Kroxigor units, Skink cohorts and skrox units.

I also intend to test Slann builds with most of the above, dual carno exempted, and test the troglodon, maybe even two troglodons in such a build.


Last note - and yes i am not very structured in my arguments - every army in Warhammer fantasy needs magic to function optimally in 8th - the question you asked would always be "much" since every army is - any army need a wizard at about 1K + maybe even at 750+. Going without is very fluffy. If the intention was to ask whether we were required to build around the prospect of a good magic phase i'm more of a doubter, and i want to test out whether i can't shake the "disease" that we need to bring a Slann to do well or whether it isn't a disease but more like a mole.

 

[Dreyer]

A good Reason to run an Oldblood over a scarvet is to put him on a carpet

Looking forward to hearing how your experiments will turn out

 

[Stormfrog]

Im starting to really like the idea of going without a Slaan to be honest, and I truly think it can be done and still be quite competative.

Consider the following build:

Oldblood
- General
- Great weapon
- Armor of destiny
- Dawnstone
- Cold one

Oldblood
- Great weapon
- Light armor
- Talisman of preservation
- Crown of command
- Cold one

Scar-veteran
- BSB
- Great weapon
- Light armor
- Stegadon helm
- Cold one

Scar-veteran
- Great weapon
- Light armor
- Dragonhelm
- Talisman of endurance
- Cold one

Add two skink priests, make em lvl 2, and give one a dispell scroll and the other one the cube. Run the saurus caracters in the first rank of a unit of 8+ cold one cavalry (obviously without the spears).

Do I need to mention how absolutely devastating this unit would be, or how well it would synergise with the lore of beasts (Seriously, IF savage beast of horrors, and this unit will kill anything. Twice). Yes, its a very costly unit, but unlike many other deathstar like units, lizardmen still allows you to throw in a few more threats to the enemy to still keep him on his toes. And although the unit is costly, it hardly, if at all, bleeds points. The cold one riders are the most fragile thing in it, and unless they all get taken out by magic and shooting, the enemy has to bash through some of the hardest characters in the game to get to them at all. Even if the riders are all dead and you are surronded on all sides, the characters will just keep bashing away, due to being almost indestructible and being stubbord at LD 8 with re-rolls.

Run up to a vampire counts cavalry buss, cast wyssans, panns impenatrable pelt, curse of anraheir or savage beast of horrors on the unit. Then dare him to charge you.

 

[Pinktaco]

You want to have 4 characters in a unit with 8 COR? I don't know.. It just doesn't seem effiecient. The biggest issue with COR is that they don't benefit from being in the second rank. They lose 3 of their attacks. They're basically just weaker Inner Circle knights at that point.

Having given COR some thoughts I'd say a unit with something like 6 COR + a Scar Vet (5 in front 2 back) + spears would be better. Why? Because with the weak initiative our COR comes with they're bound to lose some just by charging.. Or to magic/shooting. This way the unit will still hit with maximum strenght (8S5, 10S4 and 4S7 attacks for a total of 22 attacks). I just don't see any reason to pay for 8 COR when you're essentially paying 30pts for a single WS4/S4 attacks pr model.

I'd much rather go with 2 units of a minimum of 5 COR w/ spear + a Scar Vet (or old bloods) and make sure to get Wyssans Wildform off on at least one of the units since COR benefit from it quite well.

With your list I think I'd much rather have the two Old Bloods just as I mentioned and a scar vet on foot with the BSB somewhere in block of either Saurus Warriors or Templeguards.

Also do remember that savage beast of horrors only works on a single characters. I'd much rather get Wyssans Wildform off on so those 20+ attacks can benefit instead of a single character.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[VampTeddy]

You want to have 4 characters in a unit with 8 COR? I don't know.. It just doesn't seem effiecient. The biggest issue with COR is that they don't benefit from being in the second rank. They lose 3 of their attacks. They're basically just weaker Inner Circle knights at that point.

Having given COR some thoughts I'd say a unit with something like 6 COR + a Scar Vet (5 in front 2 back) + spears would be better. Why? Because with the weak initiative our COR comes with they're bound to lose some just by charging.. Or to magic/shooting. This way the unit will still hit with maximum strenght (8S5, 10S4 and 4S7 attacks for a total of 22 attacks). I just don't see any reason to pay for 8 COR when you're essentially paying 30pts for a single WS4/S4 attacks pr model.

I'd much rather go with 2 units of a minimum of 5 COR w/ spear + a Scar Vet (or old bloods) and make sure to get Wyssans Wildform off on at least one of the units since COR benefit from it quite well.

With your list I think I'd much rather have the two Old Bloods just as I mentioned and a scar vet on foot with the BSB somewhere in block of either Saurus Warriors or Templeguards.

Also do remember that savage beast of horrors only works on a single characters. I'd much rather get Wyssans Wildform off on so those 20+ attacks can benefit instead of a single character.

But that is just my opinion.

I believe he was aiming for the augmented version (12" bubble), that's when Savage beast gets to be really fun!

 

[Pinktaco]

@_@

So front rank would be 2 old blood and 2 scar vets +.. a champion? If the characters all come with GWs and the champ a spear that would make 16 S10 attacks + 14 S10 attacks along with the champ doing 6 S8 attacks. Then we have an additional 10 S4 attacks from the COs. That'll be a maximum of 46 attacks from the front rank. If they're in a bus with 7 other COR that'll make it a total of 53 attacks.

However it would would also cost an immense amount of points. I mean going somewhat cheap on the character (I haven't run the actual numbers) they'll easily cost 700pts alone, then we have 8 COR for another 240pts, 32pts for spears and finally 30pts for FC. So in other words half your army will be in that unit if you play at 2000pts. <.<

It sounds like a lot of fun, but also quite dependable of you actually getting savage beast of horror and having a magic phase that favors you since SBoH have a casting value of 20+, but yeah.. The front rank will consist of models with good weapon skills and strenght that'll kill ANYTHING.

The units biggest force is their speed and high armour.

If you don't care about speed then 40 (horde) templeguards with the Skavenpelt banner and Wyssans Wildform will dish 30 attacks from the front alone, (not including any champion or scar vet) along with an additional 2 x 10 attacks - so 50 attacks.
All of which a at WS4 (meh) and S6 and T5. If you go with a scar vet BSB in this unit with skavenpelt and a flaming banner on the standard bearer (just to be sure of no regen units) it'll cost less than 800pts, but also be slow as a rotten turd and somewhat situational. Do whatever you want with the slann. Or go double retard and have both this unit and the COR death bus in one 3000pts army.

Frenzy can be tackled with Ld8, cold blooded and the BSB.

It would appear that I now have to super strong builds to try out just for fun. I wouldn't consider any of them optimal, but they sound like fun since they'll completely wreck anything they get in contact with.

 

[Stormfrog]

I was indeed aiming for the bubbled version. And as for cold one riders being inefficent. This is true. But you're missing the fact that im not at all aiming for the killing potential of the cold one riders per se. For all I care they could be WS 1, Str 2 skinks who sit backwards on their cold ones. What im after is the 2+ AS, T4 of the riders. In short, the list is a close combat cavalry buss centered around hard as nails caracters. The rest of the models are just there to take hits from warmachines, magic and BS based shooting. They are a delivery system for the scar-vets and oldbloods, just as Black knights are for vampires, Minotaurs are for doombulls and gorebulls, ironguts are for tyrants and all the rest of the "loads of caracters in front rank, expendable stuff in back ranks" - deathstars you see faffing about.

And yes, it costs alot of points and is rather designed for 2500 pts games. Its a unique build that offers something Lizardmen have previously been rather sub-par at. Namely propper, fast and killy deathstars based upon brutal close combat characters. Sure, its not everyones sort of playstyle, but these are becoming quite popular in the current meta in many places, and I do belive that this one can hold its own against many of the best ones out there.

And its not really THAT reliant on magic. Without any arguments (or spears). This unit puts out: 18 attacks at streangth 7 (21 on avarage with PF), 8 streangth 4 attacks from its riders, and then 10 streangth 4 attacks from its mounts. In return the enemy will most likely have to face a brick of T5, 1+ armor save models with a combination of re-rolls, wards and toughness 6.

Now factor in that you are quite likely to get of atleast one spell per magic phase, even without a lvl 4. Whatever you cast on this buss will not turn them from decent into good, but merely uppgrade them from "run-away train" to "run away tank, covered in spikes, on fire".

 

[Xlanax_lot]

For me, I think not having a level 4 (or level 3) in your army means giving your opponent a big advantage, however I do think oldblods are the best spent points in the lizardman army, so why not have them both?

I have tried this list a couole of times and has worked fantastic for me, the two dispell scrolls and a magic phase with an extra D6 ( you are probably going to ignore the wounds with your ward save is worth it!) are just amayzing ad giving you control over the magic phase in the game, in adition the ability to trow spells true skins is priceless! And the vest thing is that I get two stuburn bloks my unkillable Old blood and all the other funn gadjets !

Give me some feedback what do you think!??????????

2500

Lords
Slann: Xlanax Lot
-Forbidden Road, focus of Mystery
OldBlood: Qua'Botl
-Coldone, armor of destiny, great weapon, down stone

Heroes
Gor'Rok
Scar Veteran:
-BSB, crown of command, light armor, enchanted Shield
Skink Priest: (BEASTS) dispel Scroll
Skink Priest: (BEASTS) cube of darkness

Core
Saurius Warriors (23): standard, musician, champion
Saurius Warriors (20): standard, musician, champion
Skink skirmishers (10)
Skink skirmishers (10)

Special
Riperdactils (4)
Coldones (5): standard
Chameleon skinks

Rare
Ancient Stegadon: Sharpened Horns
Salamander Hunting Pack (extra handler)

 

[Xlanax_lot]

Im starting to really like the idea of going without a Slaan to be honest, and I truly think it can be done and still be quite competative..
.....

Love the idea, definatelly giving this a try! I like to change things a lot keeps the game interesting