8th Ed. Horrible first game ever against 500 pt Bretonnian

[Battlehamster]

Hello, I just got into Warhammer a couple weeks ago (been interested for a while but now have the disposable income to play). Well I went to my local games shop to try and learn a little bit. Found another guy who played me using 500 pt armies (only core units). Not sure if this is standard or not for this point level but I gave it a shot. Armies like so...

Me:

15 Saurus w/ spears, FC
15 Saurus w/ spears, music and standard
12 skink skirmishers blowpipes w/ brave

Him (IIRC):
8 Knights of the realm in wedge
10 Peasent archers
20? Men at arms

Well the whole battle was basically over in turn two. I got my skink skirmishers into range and they couldn't score a hit versus his knights (only unit in range). He charged, I stood and shot, again no wounds. He broke them and they fled past a unit of Saurus which he ran into on the pursuit, saving my skinks but resulting in a charge on the saurus. In the meantime, his archers picked off 2 units from my other saurus on turn 1 and another 2 on turn two (thanks for nothing scaly skin!). His knights proceeded to tear apart my saurus spears, 5 casualties or so and they caused no casualties in return (his knight armor save was 2+ from praying or something, even when I wounded he saved everything. Saurus broke and got run down.

Last turn I tried to at least hit his men at arms with my reformed skinks and remaining saurus. Skinks wounded but all saved. Saurus failed a charge with double 1s from 7-8 inches away. I conceded.

So in total his knights ripped apart two of my units, his archers kept plinking the other saurus and I couldn't cause a casualty the whole fight. It was a terrible slaughter. I think it all came down to my skinks, they were right ahead of my saurus allowing his double charge. But still, not a single wound went thru unsaved. It was a most humiliating loss, and definitely not a good start to the game for me. How do I make sure I don't get spanked like that again?

 

[n810]

Sounds like you played against Bretonnian on a terrain free table...
that probaly stacked the odds in his favor considerably.

 

[Battlehamster]

Well to be honest, there was about 6 terrain features, 2 buildings and a couple fences. However I hadn't really done much studying up on terrain at that point and didn't really understand how to use them. Of course I have rectified that and now realize I probably should have tried to get my guys behind a fence and get some protection from his cavalry charge. I did think about trying to garrison one of the towers with one of my units.

 

[n810]

Puting you skinks in the building and you saurus euther behind it or the fences would have been a good idea.
Calvery can't enter buildings. and the terrain would have helped against all the shooting.
Prety sure Saurus are a decent match for the remaining men at arms.

 

[Lord Cedric]

Hello. And welcome to the game!

Not sure what edition rules you were using, but the Bretonnian's Lance formation is not longer a wedge, but only 3 models wide by however many deep. So, since he had 8 kotr, then he should of had 2 rows of 3 knights and one row of 2.

A knight can have an armour save of 2+ as their horses get "free" barding, so mounted with heavy armour give them a 3+, with barding a 2+.

The Blessing of the Lady is an option that only happens on the first turn of the Bretonnians. They "kneel" for the blessing which grants a 6+ ward save only on those models with the Knight's Vow, Questing Vow and Grail Vow rules (also Prophetesses of the Lady and Damsels - mages). However, when they "kneel" the army gives up their whole turn.

I find that the archers of Bretonnia are rather lacking. They do have a nice 30" long bow range, but overall, just dont' prove that effective. Their Ballistic skill is only at a 3 so at close range, non-moving the'll need a 4+. Anything over 15" is hit on a 5+. Attacking skirmishers is another -1 to hit.

Yes, the Bret. Knights are very hard-hitting. But their best is when they are on a charge with a +2 to their strength due to lances. If you can survice the initial charge, then you still have a chance. Their attacking suffers the rounds after the charge. If you can get to their flanks, then that is their biggest problem in my opinion. Their armour saves are nastry, but if you can get them to break, then you're in the home stretch.

The knights of the realm come with the Knights Vow, granting them immunity to Panic from friendly units fleeing and models with the Peasants Duty (which allows any peasants to use a non-fleeing knight's leadership for tests if within 6").

To a Bretonnian army, even the men-at-arms are considered fodder. Toe-to-Toe with sarurus warriors and you shouldn't have any trouble with them. They have light armour and can carry shields, giving them a 5+ armour save. Only difference would be if they had spears (attack from 3rd rank) or halberds (+1 strength, but can't carry shields). Still, kinda lackluster in my opinion.

The Bret's force is mainly in his knights. So, if you can get them to break, hit their flanks and survive the first charge, then you've got a good chance.

 

[Battlehamster]

Well that's just the thing, none of my units could stand up to the charge. Losing 5-6 units on my saurus and not getting any hits back made my saurus leadership drop to 3 or so making snakes eyes about the only thing I could do to hold (even with cold blooded). I figured I could take out the men at arms but my charge roll was utter crap so couldn't even do that much. I really didn't see much I could do to take out his knights with their 2+ armor and then a ward save (heck he didn't even have to use the ward, his armor saved everything). I was really counting on some magic to even the odds but we were using core units only (again not sure if that is standard rules or not).

 

[Lingbei]

Welcome to the game

Against Brettonians you need a lot of men in a unit to take the charge and then get the attacks back. If you can get the charge on him then it's a huge bonus, usually Cavalry will lose if they don't break you on the charge.

 

[BEEGfrog]

The other thing to consider is that different armies are better at different points levels and Lizardmen and Brettonians are probably at opposite end of the spectrum for this. Lizardmen armies benefit from more points while Brettonians are relatively stronger at lower point games.

Skink blowpipes are not meant for combat, you generally have to place them where they can't be charged or have them run away if charged.

There is also a couple of problems with Saurus spears, although they are only 1 more point then HW, you are also paying for the 2 attacks on the standard saurus profile but only get 1 attack from the extra rank eligible to fight, you also lose the parry ward save. As saurus virtually always strike last you have to ensure that you will have enough saurus to ensure you can still have enough saurus to fill all the eligible fighting positions, this generally means a minimum of 20 spear saurus in a unit so you can soak up 5 casualties before losing any attacks.