8th Ed. Help with tactics against Ogres or large tough monsters.

[Myster2]

Hello all,

I'm really new to lizardmen and fantasy in general. I've been demolished in the last two games i've played. One against dwarfs the other against ogres.

I think i could do better against dwarfs if i played against them again but I need some help vs ogres.

We are preparing for 2800pt tournament in June so our list size is 2800pts. No deathstars or "cheap" tactics allowed (i'm not bringing cupped hands for example).

My list looked something like this vs ogres. The list has to be able to fight ANY army, it can't be tailored.

Light Slann,
Ancient Steg, EoTG, lvl 1 priest with dispel scroll.
Scar vet on horned one, GW
Skink chief on terradon, staff of the sun

30 Saurus with HW and shield
30 Saurus with Spears
Skrox unit, 3 krox, 32 skinks.

10 Chameleons
10 Skink Skirmishers with blowpipes

2 Salamanders
3 Terradons
1 Ancient Stegadon


He had only a few total units,
4 leadbelchers
Two huge units of ogres with a slaughtermaster in one unit and the dragon banner.
A chariot (that i mistook for a seige weapon).
3 of the goretusks? I can't remember the names, the big boars.
The really big monster with the long tusks.
lvl 4 death mage by itself.

Basically the game started out really good for the first 3 turns (other than i never rolled over 4 for winds of magic). The terradons and the skinks both went for the chariot and to harrass the leadbelchers. The skirmishers went to harrass the leadbelchers.

The game went completely south as soon as our core units got into combat. The units of ogres absolutely demolished the saurus with impact hits. I couldn't get past their toughness to do enough wounds back despite brionas time warp. The scar vet and the skrox unit did by far the most damage due to the strength they had.

The ancient stegadon went down incredibly fast. And as expected the salamanders were useless at range due to str 3 vs toughness 4 and above.


So what are you tips for playing against ogres? I really understand now to not get charged for one thing but I was expecting the unit of saurus to last long enough to flank the ogres and that didn't happen. I think each unit died in a turn.

Also with salamanders vs an army like that, do you just charge them into combat and let them attack instead of shoot? I could never get more then 3 models under the flame template do to the ogres size.

Any help would be appreciated!

IF TLR = Summary - Ogres have to much toughness and I couldn't do any damage to them. How do you beat them tactically when your list is NOT tailored for them?


Thank you.

 

[n810]

when your list is NOT tailored for them?

Usualy.... Loose horibly.... Well that ben my experience anyway.

 

[rychek]

One option is to use the Lore of Shadow. Nothing likes to be on the receiving end of Shadow (no matter the army) and it can do wonderful things to the Ogre T issues via Withering. That and nothing significant in their army fares well against Pit of Shades. Mindrazor can do wonders to Saurus in the Slann's leadership bubble as well. Really there isn't a "bad" spell in the lore.

Taking Shadow would mean a different play style though. If you are highly reliant on Life Bloom and Regeneration, you may have trouble adjusting.

You mention that "cheap" tactics are not allowed. Does the Death wielding mage have a Greedy Fist or Hell Heart (both very "cheap" if Cupped Hands is considered "cheap")?

 

[T`hinker`er]

I would try feeding them skinks and hitting them with Krox. Eliminate one of the saurus units (dump the spears) and try 2 units of skrox in 24+3 configuration. Might also ditch the salamaders here entirely and go for more poisoned shooting with skirmishers. I also hear that Razordons can be more effective against Ogres(?)

You should be able to tool up that Scar Vet with a Piranha blade and make him unkillable with a 1+ re-rollable armor save and decent ward. Might be better to leave the Steggadons home against enemies with so many cannon options too.

 

[Myster2]

I do not know if he does. I was late so I felt bad and just setup and played without reviewing his list.

I am not reliant on life at all and I keep thinking of switching to fire anyways to get some range (ANYTHING it kills me not to have anything worthwile). But I'll look at shadow.

My new idea for an army is two units of skrox and making the saurus unti 45-50 strong.

I'm also dropping the ancient blowpipe steg and making the priest lvl 2. I really want cupped hands of the old ones as well so I might just ignore the "many people think it's unsportsmen like to bring it" concept.

One option is to use the Lore of Shadow. Nothing likes to be on the receiving end of Shadow (no matter the army) and it can do wonderful things to the Ogre T issues via Withering. That and nothing significant in their army fares well against Pit of Shades. Mindrazor can do wonders to Saurus in the Slann's leadership bubble as well. Really there isn't a "bad" spell in the lore.

Taking Shadow would mean a different play style though. If you are highly reliant on Life Bloom and Regeneration, you may have trouble adjusting.

You mention that "cheap" tactics are not allowed. Does the Death wielding mage have a Greedy Fist or Hell Heart (both very "cheap" if Cupped Hands is considered "cheap")?

 

[Stonecutter]

Given that the intent is to create a balanced list vice one specifically tailored to ogres, sticking with light is a good choice since it provides excellent buffs, decent MM's (especially against vamps, TK & daemons ), good hexes and low casting values. Overall, what the original list appears to be lacking is a strong anvil unit that can dish out pain and sufficient chaff to delay and wound opponents to allow the big investment in the slaan to pay off. Here are a few suggestions that might help:

1) replace spear saurus with TG c/w razor banner - nearly unbreakable unit with the slaan in it that can stand up to nearly anything on its own and really chew through opposing troops. Alternative is to give the slaan the crown of command to make the hw/shield saurus an anvil but with lesser punch. The spear saurus still need to go but the points can beef up the other block.

2) EoTG - personally, the skink priest is far too squishy for my tastes and with all the new cannons (ironblasters and the new daemon khorne cannon), the EoTG is unlikely to survive. This is even more pronounced at the 2800 point level as there will be massed firing in nearly every army out there.

3) Scarvet cowboy - definitely needs a magic weapon and investing in the dawnstone will make him very survivable even without buffs as he'll be T5 and 1+ re-rollable. VoFF with G/W is excellent but even a sword of might is very good.

4) With spear saurus and EoTG gone (or the other steggie if EoTG is considered a "must have"), there are plenty of points left over to field the TG and chaff units x 3-4. Even 10 regular skinks with javelins & musician will do nicely as they provide good shooting and a readily disposable unit that can re-direct a death star for a turn. Extra bonus is an easy deployment so that important units are better placed.

5) Sallies - a must have IMHO. While not ideal for ogres they are spectacular against just about any other army. Even against ogres, don't underestimate their abilities. A standard template will hit 8 ogre models and even a single model removed causes a panic check.

Well, that sums up my ideas. Good luck with your tourney.

 

[Rhodium]

Bit harsh if they have "no deathstars" then he has a large unit if bulls with his general and his bsb and the dragonhide banner in it, isn't that the definition of a deathstar?


Any way, at 2800 take double slann rather than slann and eotg

I would go light/death, initiative spells wreck ogres,purple sun will rip through them (as would pit of shades if you took shadow) and the snipe spells would kill a lone death wizard very quickly and also is useful in killing thundertusks and stone horns and ironblasters.

The light slann would buff your troops up to defend against the ogres, however you need to not let them get the charge otherwise impact hits will hurt

Skrox also can't be stomped and have movement 6 so are ideal against ogres along with strength 6 attacks

Scar vets can really hurt ogres especially if they are strength 7 ws10 -1 to hit and 1+ rerollable AS which is a common scar vet build followed by lore of light buffs

 

[Irish_Lizard]

Depends how much you are willing to change your list. Cupped hands is only necessary if you are in a temple guard unit and not running life (Note I dont advise temple guard at all.)

With Stegs the 2 options are either the monster mash or shelf sitters. 1-3 stegs are meh and tend to die easily, so either go with target saturation(4-6) or take none. Cannons are too good and everyone and their mother has one nowadays.

At 2800 I would seriously recommend 2 slann, one on death with bane head and the other on light, metal or shadow. Death offers you the ranged threat while the other lores offer you solid combat buffs. Death also offers you the extra powerdice to keep casting. With 2 disciplines each both should have rumination and one should have becalming at minimum.

Salamanders are great either get another 2 or split the unit into 2 single sallies as one wound is enough for a panic test. Dump the spears on saurus they are never worth it as saurus need to survive and paying more points for less survivability is bad. The skrox unit should be 24-3 as the skinks are just a delivery system for krox. Chameleon skinks and terradons are the best thing in the list so bring as many as you have.

Skink chiefs on terradons are cool and fluffy but die to a stiff breeze, there are 2 optimal cannon-proof scar vet on cold ones builds and both should be in your list. Engine goes in the fluffy but bad category.

Ogres are an easy match-up so long as you dont get charged and have death magic, just shoot them and magic them to death. Best thing is a death slann with bane head scares every other army as well.

 

[newscales]

Razordons.
Lots of shooting and redirection.
Smart deployment and use terrain.

 

[T`hinker`er]

... there are 2 optimal cannon-proof scar vet on cold ones builds and both should be in your list.

I'm only familiar with one, what's the other?

 

[Qupakoco]

... there are 2 optimal cannon-proof scar vet on cold ones builds and both should be in your list.

I'm only familiar with one, what's the other?

SV
Cold One
Light Armor
Sword of Might/Burning Blade
Dawnstone
Charmed Shield (cannon-proof part)

and

SV
Cold One
Great Weapon/Halberd
Light Armor
Venom
Dragonhelm
Amulet of Itzl (cannon-proof part)

 

[T`hinker`er]

Thanks. I assume that there is a ruling that cannons are not "shooting" for purposes of the Shield of Ptolos?

Also, just wondering why it seems that the Dragonhelm taken so routinely. It seems to me that flaming attacks are not that common - am I wrong? Against what opponents would this be considered a must-have item?

 

[Stonecutter]

Dragon helm is popular since it is a comparatively cheap method of getting a scar vet down to a 1+ save while still employing a great weapon or anything else requiring two hands. Also, with the new soul grinder, skull cannon and screaming skull catapult, having a 2+ ward is golden.

 

[n810]

Yea a magic helmet + regular shield + regular light armor.
is a prety good method of beefing up your armor save too.

 

[Rhodium]

It is also a good defense to the lore of metal, otherwise if you get hit by searing doom you are in trouble if you have a 1+ or 2+

 

[Caprasauridae]

Thanks. I assume that there is a ruling that cannons are not "shooting" for purposes of the Shield of Ptolos?

They are not? Then, the Fire Lore spell that makes your attacks and shooting magical, does not work on Cannons, right?

 

[Qupakoco]

The Shield of Ptolos give you a 1+ armor save, not a ward save. Since the cannon is S10 it ignores armor completely. Hence the Charmed Shield or Amulet.

 

[Myster2]

I really like the dragonhelm setup and I will do that with a scar vet. I agree completely that the EoTG is one cannonball shot away from the death of everything on it and of the two 2800 pt games i've played with my lizardmen it has done that been killed by a cannon one time already (the other army didn't have a cannon).

I'm going to keep it in for this tournament though as the organizers are asking players to play unique and competitive armies. I realize i will most likely lose to those players that are leaning more towards competitive instead of unique but ohh well.

Anyhow i've been rethinking my list a little bit and wanted to keep some fluff elements so here is where i'm at this time:

Slann (not sure which lore yet), cupped hands, rumination, ethereal.

Skink priest w/ EoTG, lvl 2, possibly ward save item. This would mean dispel scroll would go on the slann.

Skink chief with the 3x str 5 staff on terradon. 3x other terradons.

Big block of 48ish saurus in horde with SV with one of the above configurations) in it. (however does this constitute a deathstar?) - Also, don't you worry about your SV rolling stupidity on a cold one making the whole unit not be able march?

2 blocks of Skrox units with 3 Krox in each one.

2 x salamanders
1 razordon (i dont have another salamander right now).

10 chameleons

10 Skink skirimishers

I think thats it but i don't have my list in front of me.

The idea with this army is simple, catch the main enemy battleforce with the saurus, flank with the skrox units. The flak is there to get the enemy armies in the right position and take out cannons. I might try and drop the skirmishers and stick another unit of chameleons in there instead for this purpose.

 

[Rhodium]

I really like the dragonhelm setup and I will do that with a scar vet. I agree completely that the EoTG is one cannonball shot away from the death of everything on it and of the two 2800 pt games i've played with my lizardmen it has done that been killed by a cannon one time already (the other army didn't have a cannon).

I'm going to keep it in for this tournament though as the organizers are asking players to play unique and competitive armies. I realize i will most likely lose to those players that are leaning more towards competitive instead of unique but ohh well.

Anyhow i've been rethinking my list a little bit and wanted to keep some fluff elements so here is where i'm at this time:

Slann (not sure which lore yet), cupped hands, rumination, ethereal.

Skink priest w/ EoTG, lvl 2, possibly ward save item. This would mean dispel scroll would go on the slann.

Skink chief with the 3x str 5 staff on terradon. 3x other terradons.

Big block of 48ish saurus in horde with SV with one of the above configurations) in it. (however does this constitute a deathstar?) - Also, don't you worry about your SV rolling stupidity on a cold one making the whole unit not be able march?

2 blocks of Skrox units with 3 Krox in each one.

2 x salamanders
1 razordon (i dont have another salamander right now).

10 chameleons

10 Skink skirimishers

I think thats it but i don't have my list in front of me.

The idea with this army is simple, catch the main enemy battleforce with the saurus, flank with the skrox units. The flak is there to get the enemy armies in the right position and take out cannons. I might try and drop the skirmishers and stick another unit of chameleons in there instead for this purpose.

Is your slann not the bsb? If not you have no bsb, highly recommended to have a bsb

You can't out the scroll on the slann because he already has cupped hands,

By being stupid doesn't mean you can't march, it means you can't move/do anything except stumble d6 forward. And yes that is an issue that why you get a bsb slann nearby because cold blood ld9 with a reroll is pretty hard to fail

 

[GCPD]

Leadership 10 with Standard of Discipline.