8th Ed. Help with Carnosaur Oldblood build

[Atrophus]

Hi I'm new here and new to lizardmen, I'm planning on running a dual Carnosaur list and would like some comments opinions and feedback on the kit out for an Oldblood on Carnosaur:

Oldblood- GW, light armour, sacred stegadon helm, talisman of preservation,
OTS, Carnosaur, loping stride.

He seems pretty solid to me 1+/4++, the impact hits from the helm help with generating combat res even if he gets stuck in a challenge.
I left out bloodroar purposefully as I want him in combat so he can't be targeted with warmachines so it seems counter productive, or is it worth it?

Or should I just run Kroq-Gar?

Thanks in advance

 

[n810]

well you said you are running dual ?
can't you take both... or does one have to
be a scar-vet at the point level you are going for?


Edit: I just noticed are you even giving your old blood a spear or something ?
or is he just running with a handweapon ?

 

[lordkingcrow]

I'm also curious about what your other Carnosaur set up is. Oldblood or Scar-Vet? Hard to go wrong with 1+ 4++, but I like to make mine even tougher to kill so I usually give my Carno rider the Dawn Stone. 1+ 4++ and re-roll armor saves. My combo is usually Oldblood on a Carno with the Armor of Destiny, Dawn Stone, and GW. Works well for me!

 

[Atrophus]

Thanks for the replies
@n810 I'm running him with a great weapon, he's low initiative as it is so it's not wasted as it would be with a vamp lord or Dreadlord.
We'll I'm planning on only going up to 2500 points and I like to plan my list in advance instead of just buying random models, so I'm gonna go with a scar-get BSB on Carnosaur. Not 100% sure on his build yet, maybe just armour of destiny, shield, and spear.
@lordkingcrow I thought about a dawnstone build like you said, but I wanted to try the stegadon helm as it seems pretty cool and is a nice conversion opportunity.

So is Kroq-Gar viable or a waste of points? He seems pretty good and he looks awesome, and he's only a few more points than a tooled up Oldblood Carnosaur anyway.

 

[VampTeddy]

Thanks for the replies
@n810 I'm running him with a great weapon, he's low initiative as it is so it's not wasted as it would be with a vamp lord or Dreadlord.
We'll I'm planning on only going up to 2500 points and I like to plan my list in advance instead of just buying random models, so I'm gonna go with a scar-get BSB on Carnosaur. Not 100% sure on his build yet, maybe just armour of destiny, shield, and spear.
@lordkingcrow I thought about a dawnstone build like you said, but I wanted to try the stegadon helm as it seems pretty cool and is a nice conversion opportunity.

So is Kroq-Gar viable or a waste of points? He seems pretty good and he looks awesome, and he's only a few more points than a tooled up Oldblood Carnosaur anyway.

Kroq-kar is overpriced compared to what you get with the regular oldblood.

His save simple isn't good enough, 3+ / 5+ isn't very good, the only upside being him sharing the 5+ with his Carno, that doesn't get the bloodroar upgrade which is kind of a bummer :/

The spear isn't too shabby, and casting shem's on a 3+ is comparable to a bastiladon's solar engine except it's less random but has lesser top damage.

He's probably quite overpriced, but not necessarily enough to make him useless, in any case, you're better off going for a regular oldblood.

 

[Pinktaco]

Krog Gar is one of the few SCs in our book that manages to just mildly piss me off.

Not only are his special rules extremely boring, but they're also super worthless. For 50pts you can give a regular oldblood a 1+/4+ save and for a small amount of points you can give him a spear if you care. Most would probably pick a GW.

So for a minimum investment we can make a carnosaur with oldblood that is vastly superior despite Kroq gar being some sort of super lizard who have battled demons of thousand of years.

I mean... A spear that gives +1S on the charge and +2 combat resolution and a robotic arm that gives him ahem's burning gaze? REALLY?

Those are easily some of the most boring special rules of all of war hammer fantasy. A GOD DAMN SPEAR THAT GIVES +2 COMBAT RESOLUTION?! Whoever the hell that came up with that better have a good excuse because even my dog could've been more creative.

The only redeeming value the character have is the 5+ ward transferred to his mount.. The mount.. UUUGGGHGGGHGH...

So they decided to name the mount and do NOTHING with it. Absolutely NOTHING. I mean yeah it comes with frenzy (yay...) and doesn't take a monster reaction test if the rider dies. Really now.. How creative, almost as creative as.. I don't know.. The spear, perhaps? At least GW managed to be consistent with their creativity on this one.

For a couple that are supposed to be the most ultimate of both their kind they're both rather lackluster.

At least the 7th edition allowed us to field Cold One Riders as core. What happened here? Oh yeah just GW weird thing going on with COR. Obviously removing the magic banner option wasn't enough for the unit.

Now I'm not saying that SCs should be some sort of superior super models compared to our generic ones, but just take a single lookt at both Gor Rok and Tetto Eko and realize that none of those are actually overpowered, but still manages to be fun and interesting characters that can actually be used without gimping the rest of your army.

/End Rant.

 

[NexS1]

Krog Gar is one of the few SCs in our book that manages to just mildly piss me off.

I disagree with you. his carnosaur has a 5+ ward save, he gets double combat res and is a killing machine with a bound spell. I think he's one of the better ones.

 

[lordkingcrow]

I'm with you Pinktaco. I've always felt that he is extremely underwhelming. In the previous editions I've always looked at the character with very little excitement. I don't really run special characters, but if he at least still had the old cold one core rule I would actually consider running him (As I have an immense love for those stupid dinos!). Now that I have enough models to actually field such an army, it is out of my reach. Sigh...

 

[NexS1]

I ran Kroq-Gar in a tournament once.

I played against DoC against the keeper of secrets. My 5++ ward saved the carnosaur's life, then it proceeded to kill the keeper of secrets outright. It was glorious.

However, if it were a scratch built carnorider, he'd have been dead before it lifted a foot.

 

[Ersh]

Well, my 2 cents.

First of all, i always take Other Trickster's Shard on my Oldblood. Always.
Next, GW is the best choice (with our Init), except some rare situations. That means that u can take a shield only to protect yourself vs range attacks (or charmed shield, that is very nice item, but still took magic armour slot).
So, imo we have simple choice:

Armour of Destiny + Dawnstone: expensive, but almost the best protection. The only vulnerability - O.T.S. in enemy hands.
Glittering Scales + Dawnstone: imo best on Coldone, but only 2+ AS on carno =( ...and only 3+ if Carno is dead.
LA + Stegadon + Dawnstone: not so good as Glittering vs high str enemies, but still very a nice protection and impact. (and it will be 7T with beast signature)

...and there is an option with LA + Charmed shield and 4++ amulet, but that requires a magic sword.

Any of this options will be better then then Kroq-Gar =( Especially if u keep in mind that Grymlock have no bloodroar!

 

[n810]

At least the 7th edition allowed us to field Cold One Riders as core. What happened here? Oh yeah just GW weird thing going on with COR. Obviously removing the magic banner option wasn't enough for the unit.

Realy wish they would have left this in after I painted those fourty some cold ones....
and realy they should have gone further back to 6th edition where he could
join out calvery units as well.

 

[Pinktaco]

I ran Kroq-Gar in a tournament once.

I played against DoC against the keeper of secrets. My 5++ ward saved the carnosaur's life, then it proceeded to kill the keeper of secrets outright. It was glorious.

However, if it were a scratch built carnorider, he'd have been dead before it lifted a foot.

That's fine, but we're still only looking at a 66% chance to fail the save. Even then though, even if we're all "of THIS is super awesome" the rest is horse sh1t. Shem's Burning Gaze is just a single D6 S4 hits. It couldn't bother me less. And "double the combat resolution" isn't right. It grants 2 CR and that's it. Most opponents will either be flat out dead OR steadfast, in which case it's even more useless.

Strictly speaking we're paying 90pts more for Kroq-Gar to have an inferior save on the rider, worse strenght, a bound spell, transfered 5+ ward to the mount and the wooping +2 CR.

From my perspective +2S is vastly superior than +1S on the charge. Nevermind the CR.
+1 AS is also vastly superior than 2+ as in S4 attacks won't bother you at all.
So not only are both saves better, but the actual damage output is better.

The SC doesn't provide ANY additional damage output (except already being frenzy) compared to a regular OB, the saves are vastly inferior, but is somewhat fixed with the ward transfer.

IMO the model should've been something like:

Mount should at least have a 3+ scaly skin along with the 5+ ward. It should also have WS4.

Kroq-Gar's arm should count as an armour pierce and thus give him a 1+ save.
The arm should also give the option to cast the boosted shems burning gaze at power level 5.
The spear (and thus the wielder) could maybe either completely ignore armour saves OR have opponents reroll their ward save. Do remember that once you've charged you're left with S5. Personally I'd go with ignore armour.

The minor details about Grymloq still applies.

CORs can be taken with a magic banner and as core

IMO a better armour save and WS for the mount would be more in line with the mount being better than the other Carnosaurs.
The spear now have a proper purpose (IMO), the bound spell is now mildly better and being able to use CORs as core would definately be interesting.

I'd say that those 90pts more than a regular carno OB (who would still on average be stronger and more defensive) are better spend now.

One thing about the 5+ ward: Say you're up against White Lions and you're dumb enough to charge into their front. 15 attacks will outright kill a regular carno with 6,6 wounds and Grymloq will still take 4,4 wounds after ward have been taken (so a good chance to outright die too). 5+ isn't THAT incredible, especially because a lot of the time it'll stand a lone. T5 AS4+ isn't that amazing to begin with. Sometimes it'll be great, but at the end of the day you're betting your luck with a 33% chance to succeed and that's not awesome.

Obviously all of this is in my opinion. You've had your luck and that's fair, but tbh I'd rather just save the points and deal with not having a 5+ ward on the mount. Which appear to be the only redeeming quality of the SC version.

 

[NexS1]

Making the most of what we have is the aim of the game. We can moan about how we have been ripped off in the 8th ed army book all we like, but it won't change the fact that our carnosaur is T5 4+ scales.

For every wound Kroq-gar causes in CC, he gets 2 combat res, which is handy. It may be the difference between winning a round of combat and forcing a stubborn test, or losing combat and running away. It all depends on what you want to put the oldblood up against.
If i'm taking Kroq-gar, then i'm putting him up against eithersingle models (for the carno D3 wounds) light infantry. After all, there are 10x attacks coming out of one model(grymloq has +1 attack over normal carno) plus thunderstomp.

He goes alright

 

[SilverFaith]

And "double the combat resolution" isn't right. It grants 2 CR and that's it. Most opponents will either be flat out dead OR steadfast, in which case it's even more useless.

I'd try lookinng at his profile again if I were you. It isn't just +2 CR.

My main issue with him, is that we can give it a 6+ ward on any standard character for 5 points thanks to the ironcurse icon. And frankly, I wouldn't put so many additional points into a carnorider, and sacrifice a bunch of stats, just to get a 5++ instead of a 6++.

I originally thought it effectivelly had the multiwound (2) rule, which would have made it an "average" piranha blade. That would have made more sense, and would have been far better. Meh.

At least he excels at destroying undeads and demons. x2 combat res from kills is horrific for anything unstable.

And then we have useless characters like Chakax who have absolutely no redeeming features at all. Krog'Gar is at least SOMEWHAT useable.

 

[Pinktaco]

Making the most of what we have is the aim of the game. We can moan about how we have been ripped off in the 8th ed army book all we like, but it won't change the fact that our carnosaur is T5 4+ scales.

For every wound Kroq-gar causes in CC, he gets 2 combat res, which is handy. It may be the difference between winning a round of combat and forcing a stubborn test, or losing combat and running away. It all depends on what you want to put the oldblood up against.
If i'm taking Kroq-gar, then i'm putting him up against eithersingle models (for the carno D3 wounds) light infantry. After all, there are 10x attacks coming out of one model(grymloq has +1 attack over normal carno) plus thunderstomp.

He goes alright

I'm not thrilled, but fair enough I didn't read properly about the CR. My bad.

He *can* be effective, I never argued against it, he just have super boring special rules coming from someone who is supposed to be quite awesome. That's a shame IMO. I'd much rather prefer the (IMO) superior generic OB on carno due to the points I made.

Anyway he doesn't actually have an additional attack per se. Or well he actually does, but he doesn't gain blood frenzy so his initial stats have +1A compared to a regular carno, but after a single round of combat they're identical in terms of attacks.

Should I stop b1tching about him? Probably .

 

[NexS1]

That's true... frenzy is a double edged sword. But if kroz-gar dies grymloq auto passes the test and gets unlosable frenzy