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8th Ed. Help needed vs High Elves (2250 points)

T
Kroxigor

the-graven

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Can you guys here help me make a list, these are the models I own:

Slann
Scar-Vet on foot
Scar-vet on cold one
3 Skink chiefs
3 Skink Priests
40 Saurus warriors
40 Skinks
20 Temple Guard(can be used as saurus, my friend is ok with it)
8 Cold One Cavalry
6 Kroxigors
2 Salamanders
Ancient Stegadon

So can you help me make a 2250 points list, all I know about his list, it will contain an archmage with Book fo Hoeth and he's gonna use a big block of seaguard and at least 1 tiranoc and lion chariot.
 
By the way i also have 3 Terradons, but I can't put them together, I tried to glue them, but that didn't work, they are unglueable or so :D , then I tried it with Green Stuff, wich didn't work either, i can't put them together :depressed:
 
I've fought High Elves a couple of times and noted a couple of things. Firstly, ASF sucks. Fortunately, Saurus Warriors are tough. Two blocks of 20 should do it, though I usually prefer 24+. Give them HW and shields to try and save as many as possible. You definately don't want to use Temple Guard as normal Saurus, though - these guys are absaloutely solid. With their halberds they'll be wounding elves on 2+. They'll also do their job of keeping your Slann safe (I reccomend Life). Give the Revered Champion the Sword of the Hornet to get at least 3 attacks off simultaneously. He might even surprise you and win a challenge. 16 is a good number - I'd like more but it gets pricey.

A High Elf Archmage with the Book of Hoeth is a second pain, and will frustrate you in the magic phase no end. Don't expect to have complete arcane dominance. I'd reccomend the Focus of Rumination for the extra power dice.

Chariots can be nasty if they hit you, especially in the flank and if timed properly. They have one weakness, though: poison. Surround them with fast-moving skinks to keep out of the frontal charge arc and pepper them with darts.

Seaguard are interesting. They have bows, which are more of a nuisance if anything. The other thing about them is that a horde will attack with all 4 ranks if it doesn't charge. Try hitting them in the front with Saurus and krox/skrox in the flanks. The salamanders will also be great against a big block.

I have real trouble kitting out scar-veterans to go up against HE heroes, so much so that in my last game I didn't bother with one at all. Someone else might be able to give you a good combo. Otherwise, I wouldn't reccomend a skink chief unless he is on a terradon. Save the points for elsewhere.
 
Take Light. It completely neuters their ASF and rerolls.

Other than that, blocks of Saurus are a good way to go, with the Chameleon Skinks and Terradons to provide some light shooting. 5+ AS swordmasters hate getting rocks dropped on them.
 
thanks guys, that was actually what I was thinking except for the TG(I have lost faith in them but will give them another try), by the way, that spell of lore of light that makes someone make a S test when they want to move/cast might be good against the archmage's unit, though I think feedback scroll+bane head will do the trick :D
I'll post a list as soon as possible.

P.S. I managed to put 1 terradon togehter yesterday with Green Stuff, but it was a hell job, gonna put the steg togehter today.
 
Well I made a list, pretty quick huh, here it goes:

Slann(General)
+Focused Rumination, Focus of Mystery(Light)
+Feedback Scroll, Bane Head(Archmage)
+BSB, Standard of Discipline

Goes in:
20 Temple Guard
+FC

20 Saurus Warriors
+Spears, Standard, Musician

20 Saurus Warriors
+Spears, Standard, Musician

16 Skinks, 2 Kroxigors

10 Skinks

3 Terradon

Stegadon

Salamander

Salamander

Total: 2016
Well that's it, a little bit over, but well my friend won't make a lot fo trouble over that he can have 16 points extra then, dunno where to shave those 16 points off, I could drop Discipline standard, but it's too vital.

So what do you think, will it work??
That 10-men skink unit is there to sacrifice, I will use them for this tactic:

Stegadon Tactic: Ok I'm assuming I'm facing a Tiranoc Chariot/Elven Cavalry here, so it will be like this:
I place the sacrificial skinks 8" in front of him and the steg 22" away, he charges the skinks, they flee, he probably catches them, his charge will be between 11"and 21", meaning he will be between 1" and 11" away of the stegadon who will charge him. I could try this with the skrox unit too, but then need to find points to get that xtra skink unit. This tactic is nice, because his chariots(wich he will use, he likes them) are useless when they don't charge, and his cavalry is way less without the charge AND my steg gets Impact Hits.
This can be used against chariots and cavalry of other races, but you need to adjust your distance to his maximum charge range, i.e. he has M7 so you need to put your steg 20"away so he can't overrun in your steg.
 
Don't bother with the standard of discipline. Its only an extra +1 Ld. You've already got cold blooded and a reroll from the BSB. Plus I'm not sure how it works when on a general.
 
Clockwork said:
Don't bother with the standard of discipline. Its only an extra +1 Ld. You've already got cold blooded and a reroll from the BSB. Plus I'm not sure how it works when on a general.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Ld 10 on your whole army plus cold-blooded equals big time win.

Very last page, very last entry of the BRB FAQ confirms that the Slann can use the Standard of Discipline and will grant his LD of 10 to everyone in range.

Q: If the General is in a unit with the Standard of Discipline will
he gain +1 Leadership and then be able to pass it onto his unit
(because he is in it) as well as other units in range of the Inspiring
Presence special rule? (Reference)
A: Yes.
 
I agree with Droohof, Ld10+cold-blooded+re-roll for everyone with 12"(wich means at least all my main combat blocks)=great.

About the list, I'm gonna change a few things, I'm gonna use a lone slann and turn the TG in saurus, will make the list as soon as possible, good thing those army creators exist.
 
And here is the list, pretty quick again huh.

Slann(General)
+Focus of Mystery, Focused Rumination, Higher State
+BSB, Standard of Discipline
+Cupped Hands

28 Saurus(7x4)
+Standard and Music

28 Saurus(7x4)
+Standard and Music

10 Skinks(Sacrificial)

10 Skinks(Sacrificial)

16 Skinks
+2 Kroxigors, Musician

3 Terradons

Salamander

Salamander

Ancient Stegadon

Tot: 2018

Well as you can see no TG, more saurus, the steg become older :D and I got a sacrificial unit for the skrox unit so they can get the charge instead of getting charged from those chariots.
Looks better to me now, what do you think??
 
Not sure about 7x4 to be honest. I run 6x4 and even that seems excessively wide at times. So much so tha I think I'm going to use ranks of 5 in my next few games.

Droohoof said:
Clockwork said:
Don't bother with the standard of discipline. Its only an extra +1 Ld. You've already got cold blooded and a reroll from the BSB. Plus I'm not sure how it works when on a general.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Ld 10 on your whole army plus cold-blooded equals big time win.

Very last page, very last entry of the BRB FAQ confirms that the Slann can use the Standard of Discipline and will grant his LD of 10 to everyone in range.

Q: If the General is in a unit with the Standard of Discipline will
he gain +1 Leadership and then be able to pass it onto his unit
(because he is in it) as well as other units in range of the Inspiring
Presence special rule? (Reference)
A: Yes.
Click to expand...

Admittedly, that clarification does make the combo much more viable. I'm just not sure if its worth the points for that one extra point in Ld - given how you are rolling cold blooded and re-rolling for BSB anyway. Personally I'd save the points to use elsewhere.
 
Clockwork said:
I'm just not sure if its worth the points for that one extra point in Ld - given how you are rolling cold blooded and re-rolling for BSB anyway. Personally I'd save the points to use elsewhere.
Click to expand...

For less then the price on you rather spend one more point for one temple guard then give everyone within 12 inches of your Slann Ld of 10. I dont know about you but thats well worth the points in my book. Ld 9 still goes down if you lost a combat. That small points gives everyone within 12'' an extra boost. I do not see the point of not taking it. Say you lose a combat by 4, instead of taking a coldblooded test needing 5 or less you now need 6 or less. I don't know the math but I do know its a much bigger chance of making it. Then again we all roll triple 6 eventually but that is the way dice work.

Clockwork said:
Not sure about 7x4 to be honest. I run 6x4 and even that seems excessively wide at times. So much so tha I think I'm going to use ranks of 5 in my next few games.
Click to expand...

I agree fully here. Unless your opponent is fielding hordes out the wazoo, you will more then likely won't get all them in combat. A basic unit of 20 mm 5x4 barely fits in the 25mm 5 wide. Unless you are charging, your enemy (a smart one) will not put his full unit into contact with more then he needs to. More or less 5 guys will be in base contact. Besides ranks rule in 8th negating his rank bonuses and more importantly steadfast.
 
I am going to have to agree with Clockwork. LD9 + cold-blooded is really as far as you need to go. The chances of you failing the test go down about one percent with the extra point of LD. And with a Light Slann, you should manage to be winning most combats or at least testing on Stubborn, which either way should keep them there.
 
actually if you factor in a re-roll...

LD9, cold blooded, reroll = 99.7%
LD10, cold blooded, reroll = 99.9%


yeah, i'm not sold on that banner. and frankly, i believe the FAQ is wrong, but there you go.
 
Just because you dont like the answer in the FAQ doesnt make it wrong. The FAQ are allways "right" in the sence that they are the rules of the game.

Anyway I would never leave out the banner if I bring a slann. As been pointed out it has a similar price to temple guards (hope this is ok to write) and will realy shine those time when you would have failed your panic-tests (rare but ooooh so anoying) but especially when you (as been said before) lose combat by a few points.

The probability looks llike this:

ld check....pass.........fail........pass w/ reroll......fail w/ reroll
10............98.15.......1.85.......99.966...............0.034
9.............94.91........5.09.......99.741...............0.259
8.............89.35........10.65.....98.866...............1.134
7.............80.56........19.44.....96.219...............3.781
6.............68.06........31.94.....89.796...............10.204
5.............52.31........47.69.....77.261...............22.739
4.............35.65........64.35.....58.588...............41.412
3.............19.91........80.09.....35.852...............64.148
2.............7.41..........92.59.....14.266...............85.734


(Big thanks to nuclear for posting this in another thread).

When you go down to a ld 5 test (without the banner) it will boost your chanses by over 10%.
At a ld 2 test it will more than double your chanses and land on a one in three chanse of success.

I realise that many people never plan on loosing combats by this much but in my experience there is allways something hard and scary enough to win over our boloved saurus in CC (talking about those horrible Chaos wariors) and in those cases all help is necesary.

Mostly however i would never be able to accept how my units run from a panic or break test, that they lose by one point, knowing that I could have stoped it for the worth of a single temple guard.
 
Can we stop this discussion about the banner, that should be in another topic, and I'm incredibly unlucky with the dice and that 1 extra Ld has saved me a dozen times.
About the 7x4 formation, I'm gonna try that out and my friend most times puts his Seaguard 8 wide to maximise arrow shots and attacks, so we can close that discussion too, andybody got some comments on something else in the list or about the stegadon tactic or whatever, it will be greatly appreciated,

the-graven
 
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