8th Ed. HE and Lizzie synergy! Help!

[KroxigorsFTW]

Okay, so a few mates and I are chucking up a 5K game soon.

There'll be 4 players on 2 teams.

One tean is already decided, it'll be HE (A friends) and Lizzies (me, duh!)

The other team is a DE and probably WoC (or VC.... Or OK) so my question is how should we build our lists to Synergise well togeather?

I was thinking of fielding a predominatley "Anvil" army while saying he should be the hammer (He likes to field nice big 21 7x3 elven units, it's scary to face...) so, anyways, what do you guys think we/I should be fielding?

I was thinking a lot of Saurus and an Oldblood on a Carnosaur (or a Slann....) and yeah, that's about all I have. Besides the neccesary 6 Krox unit.

Your thoughts? Thanks.

 

[JohnMavrick]

A fun and interesting fact about Dark Elves! They are distrustful which means when they team up with an ally, any ally, they have to split power and dispel dice.

My suggestion, go big on magic. When you target the chaos player or the Dark Elf player they won't share dispel dice and have to rely on their own meagre pool. Heh, it works wonders!

Oh, and get some skinks. They are cheep, kill things with ease and you don't have to worry about losing them although your opponents will try like hell to get rid of them.

 

[HoverBoy]

A fun and interesting fact about Dark Elves! They are distrustful which means when they team up with an ally, any ally, they have to split power and dispel dice.

That depends, they might start as trusted allies, but will likely worsten from there.

 

[JohnMavrick]

A fun and interesting fact about Dark Elves! They are distrustful which means when they team up with an ally, any ally, they have to split power and dispel dice.

That depends, they might start as trusted allies, but will likely worsten from there.

Excellent point, they do start out as trusted but the Dark Elves have to roll at the beginning of every turn and if they fail the roll (I forget what roll it is) they becoming distrustful. The good stuff happens after the second failed roll if I remember correctly.

Still, I'd go magic heavy. This is the one time you'll have Teclis on your side so why not have him on board eh?

 

[Grant]

You and your friend will have to share power and dispel dice, meaning that you only really need 1 level 4 caster. If that should be an archmage or slann is up to you. The archmage will get +5 to his dispel attempts as compared to the slann's +4, which can be nice, but the slann can get the extra power die etc. You should be the one to buy secondary casters though, because skink priests are the cheaper way to get a dispel or feedback scroll. It may be worth the HE player taking one cheap level 1 for the Annulian Crystal though.
As far as what units to take, it is rare for high elf shooting to be worth a damn, so make sure you include some shooting and harassment in your own army. Of course that won't do much against WoC, but the DE are nice and squishy and very susceptible to salamanders and blowpipes.
Also, make sure that at least one of you is including fast and hard-hitting units. This means either Dragon Princes from the High Elf player, Cold One Cavalry from you, or a Carnosaur and mix of other units. They can no longer frontally charge and win against infantry units, but I know no better way to take down a block of Chaos Warriors than flanking them with CoC while hitting them in the front with saurus. Heavy cav that dish out lots of attacks still have a role to play in this game, regardless of their power going down in eighth edition. Chaos warriors are currently one of the hardest units in the game to take down in a head-to-head fight, so you need something to out-maneuver them.
The HE player will find that his elite infantry should be either Phoenix Guard or White Lions, not Swordmasters. This is because the DE will have crossbows and bolt throwers that make very short work of the Toughness 3, 5+ armour Swordmasters. If he knows how to use them, great eagles are golden. The Banner of Sorcery should also find its way into his list somewhere as well, regardless of which player is running the primary caster.
Hope that helps.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

You and your friend will have to share power and dispel dice, meaning that you only really need 1 level 4 caster. If that should be an archmage or slann is up to you. The archmage will get +5 to his dispel attempts as compared to the slann's +4, which can be nice, but the slann can get the extra power die etc. You should be the one to buy secondary casters though, because skink priests are the cheaper way to get a dispel or feedback scroll. It may be worth the HE player taking one cheap level 1 for the Annulian Crystal though.

Yeah, I'll be needing to bring a Slann (my friend has horrible luck with magic, his mage miscast 3 times one game, the first turn the next... :/). So I wont be able to use my Carni build. Ahhh well, I might be able to fit a nice oldblood build in anyways...
Yeah, i'm for like all backup casters (he will hopefully just cast drain magic at the end of our phase), I'll tell him you recommended that item and see what happens.

As far as what units to take, it is rare for high elf shooting to be worth a damn, so make sure you include some shooting and harassment in your own army. Of course that won't do much against WoC, but the DE are nice and squishy and very susceptible to salamanders and blowpipes.

I was already thinking a bunch of small skirmisher squads (they will grant hard cover to his elf units, right?) but Sallies were already in there, I love those buggers

Also, make sure that at least one of you is including fast and hard-hitting units. This means either Dragon Princes from the High Elf player, Cold One Cavalry from you, or a Carnosaur and mix of other units. They can no longer frontally charge and win against infantry units, but I know no better way to take down a block of Chaos Warriors than flanking them with CoC while hitting them in the front with saurus. Heavy cav that dish out lots of attacks still have a role to play in this game, regardless of their power going down in eighth edition. Chaos warriors are currently one of the hardest units in the game to take down in a head-to-head fight, so you need something to out-maneuver them.

Would White Lions and Kroxigors do? Because he isn't a fan of DPs and CoC just seem meh to me. I might try them if I have the points, though.

The HE player will find that his elite infantry should be either Phoenix Guard or White Lions, not Swordmasters. This is because the DE will have crossbows and bolt throwers that make very short work of the Toughness 3, 5+ armour Swordmasters. If he knows how to use them, great eagles are golden. The Banner of Sorcery should also find its way into his list somewhere as well, regardless of which player is running the primary caster.
Hope that helps.

They already are, and probably a large Seaguard unit (or two of something like 30 or somesuch nonsense), with the PG and WL Captain guys, a mage, lord (maybe on dragon), BSB and... Yeah that's all I really remember, but he likes the idea of lots of Elves.
I'm pretty sure he's already got the Banner on his WL. Can't be certain though. It was on something.
He doesn't know how to (infact, hes only played about 6 games ever... If that)
Thanks, it did.

Still, I'd go magic heavy. This is the one time you'll have Teclis on your side so why not have him on board eh?

We're not fielding him, we may be up against a tough alliance, but we have standards
I dunno about the whole magic heavy thing. I don't even know weather to take an offensive or defensive Toad.

Oh, and what are you guys's thoughts on Terradons? Would they maybe be worth it for drop rocks? (then attack DE)
What about an Engine, I know, he's a bit expensive to be not getting spells through, but Burning Alignment?
Yes/no?

 

[HoverBoy]

We're not fielding him, we may be up against a tough alliance, but we have standards

Win.

Oh, and what are you guys's thoughts on Terradons? Would they maybe be worth it for drop rocks? (then attack DE)

Small units of missile troops hate rocks landing on them, beware of swift reforming tho, try and land in a forest if possible they have forest strider use it.

What about an Engine, I know, he's a bit expensive to be not getting spells through, but Burning Alignment?
Yes/no?

Burning alignment is brutal on WoC, and i found that a dawnstone will keep the wizard safe in CC against most chaff units (avoid S5+ and characters), i like him as a lvl 1 with a scroll and the dawnstone, 2+ rerollable wizards are unexpected and if youre only facing crosboww fire when advancing it gets even better.

In fact considering you aren't gonna be facing any cannons (2 stonethrowers tops) this is a great chance to field monsters, for both you and your ally.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

Win.

Yeah, I thought it'd be the right thing to (not) do.

Small units of missile troops hate rocks landing on them, beware of swift reforming tho, try and land in a forest if possible they have forest strider use it.

They will go in the "maybe" section haha.

Burning alignment is brutal on WoC, and i found that a dawnstone will keep the wizard safe in CC against most chaff units (avoid S5+ and characters), i like him as a lvl 1 with a scroll and the dawnstone, 2+ rerollable wizards are unexpected and if youre only facing crosboww fire when advancing it gets even better
In fact considering you aren't gonna be facing any cannons (2 stonethrowers tops) this is a great chance to field monsters, for both you and your ally.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, it's amazing against WoC.
However, due to this thread: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/lore-of-beasts-and-mass-scar-vets.6001/I've decided to do a Beast Slann with a lot of Scarvets.

So the engine will be too taxing on my heroes, but the Scar Vet madness will be worth it
Now, the rest of the army compasition, I was thinking of TG (to house the Slann, I dunno if I want him Etherial again) and 2-3 Saurus blocks. From there I was going to go with a unit of 6ish Kroxigor and then 2 packs of Sallies (ish).

And, of course, the token mass of skinks. If I can afford it.

 

[Coatl]

in hindsight, the GW for the scar vets MIGHT be a tad bit of overkill (S7 with GW then +3S from spell). You could save yourself the 8 points and still end up with a S8 Scar Vet, maybe give them extra handweapons? Assuming you run the 6 of them, thatd be 48 S8 attacks (with the spell in place) on top of whatever the unit puts out. Everytime i think about it, it makes me smile . I'd say sallies are a must in the game, the more the merrier. good luck!

 

[Viarca]

What sort of DE and WoC/VC/OK lists do your opponents usally run? Personally, I've never had any trouble against OK (even when played by skilled opponents), and found WoC to be highly list-dependent. DE are among the most popular armies out here (along with HE and Skaven... more so now since IoB), and can be very dangerous (especially combined with an army like WoC). The WoC Tzeentch Lore remains about my least favorite lore with an elf army because of Pandaemonium, Treason of Tzeentch (if you think DE shooting is dangerous to them, this is worse), Infernal Gateway and Flickering Fire... all of which are cheap to cast with the +5 bonus of a lv4 Tzeentch caster. If possible, press your advantage in magic with an Annulian Crystal, and the Sigil of Asuryan (to try and get rid of Pandaemonium).

If you can, I'd encourage your friend to use at least 4 RBTs and concentrate fire on the immediate threats. Having a decent-sized block of LSG with the flaming banner in case of hydras and trolls isn't a bad idea either. And if you're sure it's going to be WoC, then having someone using Lore of Metal, which isn't a terrible choice for HE anyway with the scaly skin and +1 shooting spell, could really swing things in your favor (though it probably wouldn't be considered friendly... but still much better than Teclis). Remember, metal damage spells are also considered flaming, so they will negate any regen on a unit with an AS too.

I'd be wary of using any Swordmasters, unless you are screening them with something else, like on a flank to the side of a block of Skinks or Saurus that keeps them out of direct view. White Lions are OK, better if there's lots of terrain, but I prefer the tenacity of a unit of Phoenix Guard (plus it's a good unit to bury the Banner of Sorcery in).

You have the right idea to use your Lizardmen core as an anvil to hold stuff up. I still don't like cavalry this edition, and while the Carnosaur might be tempting, I don't think it will make back its points and is likely to get shot down by RBTs. The Beast Lore tactic with Saurus heroes definitely sounds interesting, but I'd still be wary of putting too many points in a unit that could just die to shooting and magic and will attract a lot of attention. Shadow is a good Lore against WoC to hinder their advantages in CC too.

Just try and keep in mind what you beleive you're likely to be facing and plan ahead. No matter what, it sounds like it will be a fun game for you all to play.

 

[Eladimir]

Would love to hear the results of a battle report when its all said and done.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

What sort of DE and WoC/VC/OK lists do your opponents usally run? Personally, I've never had any trouble against OK (even when played by skilled opponents), and found WoC to be highly list-dependent. DE are among the most popular armies out here (along with HE and Skaven... more so now since IoB), and can be very dangerous (especially combined with an army like WoC). The WoC Tzeentch Lore remains about my least favorite lore with an elf army because of Pandaemonium, Treason of Tzeentch (if you think DE shooting is dangerous to them, this is worse), Infernal Gateway and Flickering Fire... all of which are cheap to cast with the +5 bonus of a lv4 Tzeentch caster. If possible, press your advantage in magic with an Annulian Crystal, and the Sigil of Asuryan (to try and get rid of Pandaemonium).

WoC, I havn't faced since 7th, so I dunno. I hear he is fielding 24 Warrior squads (an 'anvil' squad with HW+S+MoT and a 'hammer' of Halbers and maybe MoK, can't rememer). Though, if he does do WoC, I'm fairly sure he will field like 6 Trolls. But he might do a Sigvald Bunker (but he might not, again leaving a massive point gap).

DE guy has too many variables to judge. When I faced him it was Lord on Dragon, Hydra, 50 Man Spearman horde, 30ish Execs, 10ish CoK (2 mages, and token BSB) and that's about all I remember. But I don't think he liked the horde to much, and the CoK he said are debateable due to their huge point cost, same with the lord on Dragon (He was thinking of fielding Malekith >_>).
So, his army is questionable.

So in short, there's too much change (and I hear he is now really considering OK [which I don't really fear, unless he spams scraplaunchers, because they sound annoying]). Sigil of Asuryan, i'll rememeber that, thanks. I'm no stranger to Tzeentch magic, i've used it a fair bit.

If you can, I'd encourage your friend to use at least 4 RBTs and concentrate fire on the immediate threats. Having a decent-sized block of LSG with the flaming banner in case of hydras and trolls isn't a bad idea either. And if you're sure it's going to be WoC, then having someone using Lore of Metal, which isn't a terrible choice for HE anyway with the scaly skin and +1 shooting spell, could really swing things in your favor (though it probably wouldn't be considered friendly... but still much better than Teclis). Remember, metal damage spells are also considered flaming, so they will negate any regen on a unit with an AS too.

Nah, he wont be changing his list too much I don't think, he's still so new I think he just wants to get a feel for his list in general. And he HATES RBTs from facing Skaven (and the DE guy does too, btw).
He wont be going big on magic for 2 reasons: His mage usually explodes once in any given magic phase (seriously) and we need Drain Magic to make it worse for them. I'm even taking Becalming on my Slann (who will use beasts) so metal is out of the question, sorry.

I'd be wary of using any Swordmasters

Don't worry, he wont be fielding them, and yeah, that is on the PG (that or the Razor Standard, so they might kill stuff against WoC).

You have the right idea to use your Lizardmen core as an anvil to hold stuff up. I still don't like cavalry this edition, and while the Carnosaur might be tempting, I don't think it will make back its points and is likely to get shot down by RBTs. The Beast Lore tactic with Saurus heroes definitely sounds interesting, but I'd still be wary of putting too many points in a unit that could just die to shooting and magic and will attract a lot of attention. Shadow is a good Lore against WoC to hinder their advantages in CC too.

Yeah, at least i'm doing somthing right
Neither do I, I never really like CoC anyways. I actually like them, I design mine for as challenge machines with my "ninja" build. That or to throw hap-hazardly into random enemy units (and the DE dude wont field RBTs, he's convinced they're not worth their points, infact, his team mate will probably tell him off for using them). Yeah, i'm doing it because it sounds really fun. But again, that makes Shadow out of the question, sorry.

Just try and keep in mind what you beleive you're likely to be facing and plan ahead. No matter what, it sounds like it will be a fun game for you all to play.

Yeah, i'm trying to do that by planning a general defence, with a few tweaks for facing them.
Thanks, by the way, your post was a real gem.

Eldimir: I'll try and see if I can get one, though, they might not want to slow the game down for it.