7th Ed. Havens and Light the most underrated lores?

[Thunder Lizard]

I've been reading over and over again on "how weak Havens magic is". The same has been said for Light. I have to disagree. Casting cost for casting cost Havens and light maybe the most underrated choices in the game. Ok if you are going for pure magic damage then yes Metal and Fire are leaps and bounds better, but the average casting cost of a fire spell is 8.16 and metal is 7.66 each only has 2 spells you can "try" to two dice. (spells under a 7 to cast). Only 2 of those spells are direct damage. On average you are going to be rolling 3+ dice per spell. That lowers the amount of spells you are going to "try" to cast and increases the odds for miscast. On the other hand Havens average casting cost is 7.33 and Lights average is 6.5 and havens has three spells under 7 while light has 4!! under 7. Thats 7/12 spells that you can two dice. Most of you just said "ya thats 7 craptastic spells". Not really. I'll give u that Pha's ill sucks but the other 6 are far more useful then you may think. Out of those 6 low cost spells there are 2 direct magic spells. (that matches the total of Fire and Metal). The other 4 spells are gems! Here is where I'm coming from. Often Lizard generals rely WAY too much on offensive magic to win their battles. "yes" we have one of the best casters in the game. "yes" we can run a monster/casting/nuker (EoTG). But thats not all we are. We have a very over looked aspect of our army, Saurus and temple guard. They are strong, they have above average AS and lots of attacks. (Spears or no spears) Havens and Light have the stuff to make your Saurus and Temple guard or heck even your COC/Krox make your enemy fear these lores combined. Lizards are strong average S4 , they are tough as well average T4. So they hit hard and are hard to kill, but the problem is they have to hit to do damage. Thats were Havens and Light gives you a unfair edge. 3 of the low cost spells helps improve your odds of hitting and ultamently killing you enemy. 3 chances to help your combat troops swing the tide of battle. The last spell is well... a frecking healing spell! "Oh no you've wounded my krox/steg/scar vet." Well guess what, you get to try to wound it again. Now you have a army and lore set that has straight up synergy. Thats a hot mess for your enemy. Don't over look Havens or Light. They just maybe what you are missing in your army right now! (Someone had to stand up for these to lores and well I guess I'm better then nothing)
What is your thoughts on it?

Some quick retorts to some common responses:

"But Thunder, Metal has a spell that helps with combat and better direct damage ten fold. " Yep it does. It also cost more. That takes away from your other spells. Yes I'm aware Spirit of the forge would be a better choice (same range) but thats a 4 dice investment that would get scrolled if not doubled 6. ) (I have nothing against metal btw Law of gold is my fav spell.)

"You would get trucked by the item/ army that has the anit-light lore rule (doubles miscast i thinks its WOC)" You are 100% right. Thats why I would pick something else for that game.

"so you are saying u only run those 2 lores?" Nope I just like the way they work together and if all goes well I"ll burn enemies dispel scrolls early.

Thanks for reading sorry so long

Your Friendly Thunder Lizard

 

[Bibamus]

there was another forum member that wrote a magic tactics article how each spell works in synergy with heavens and overall on the battlefield, very good arcticle aswell.
heavens is mandatory to skink priests and they will probably be allways on the field. light is nice against undead and healing your steg to full W is very nice once in a while, but against armies like WoC or Brettonia metal is way better. Fire ravages skaven with wall of fire and burning head, not to mention firey blast or the one when you roll dice to see if it ends rape the abomination.
life is good vs empire with rain lord and the "missiles with S less than 4 don't hit ya".
lore are manly situational, beasts also has its usees while shadow can have some nasty effects on undead and LM with pit of hsades and the general low movement speed for nasty flanking wih unseen lurker

as for casting costs... we're talking about the slann and every slann should have focus of rumination. now we are talking 1 dice vs 2 dice/spell... 2+1 has more IF chances and also its harder to dispell. there are only so many spells you want to cast in a given situation, mostly 3, and thats how people use the slann from what i read (2 common pool +1; 2 slann +1; 2 slann +1). this gives you 3 spells cast on 3 dice (most of the usefull spells) that are also harder to dispell. there won't be many situation where you'll need to cast 4+ spells from your slann since many of the light spells don't need scrolling and portent of far allready drains scrolls without having to give your slann that job. another point worth mentioning is the cupped hands of the old ones for the slann. now you want a miscast, you are rolling lots of dice anyway when there is only 1 spell left worth casting (situational) that means the more expnesive your spells, the less power dice"wasted"

i can see the advantages of light but it is a situational lore. i might use it against empire or dwarves to regen the stegadon after eating cannon shots, but life or metal respectively would probably fare better against thos armies. also life heals up all the wounds from a stegadon/slann while light only heals 1

 

[erians]

"But Thunder, Metal has a spell that helps with combat and better direct damage ten fold. " Yep it does. It also cost more. That takes away from your other spells. Yes I'm aware Spirit of the forge would be a better choice (same range) but thats a 4 dice investment that would get scrolled if not doubled 6. ) (I have nothing against metal btw Law of gold is my fav spell.)

I rarely ever have a problem with casting values. I usually chuck a 1-2-3 combo turning into a 2-3-4 combo with a Rumination Slann, and with an Engine on the field its easy to beat the casting values. What stops spells isnt failing to cast them, dispel dice is the real threat to your magic offence, and to get thru the important spells you need to throw a lot of dice at it. The damage spells from Metal and Fire is not only better but down right game changing. A spirit of the forge vs a VC Black Knight bus or a big unit of grail knights can decide the outcome of the game and a well cast Fire Wall can force an entire unit to either take a flank charge or move and get 20-25 S4 hits. In an uncomped environment people might take 3-4 scrolls but I rarely see people taking more than 1-2 which quickly runs out.

"You would get trucked by the item/ army that has the anit-light lore rule (doubles miscast i thinks its WOC)" You are 100% right. Thats why I would pick something else for that game.

Thats DoC, and it only miscasts on double 1,2 and 3. Not a lot of players take it tho, there are better banners and I agree that using that flag as an argument for not taking Lore of Light is pretty invalid.

"so you are saying u only run those 2 lores?" Nope I just like the way they work together and if all goes well I"ll burn enemies dispel scrolls early.

If you play a Slann + EoTG set up, which seems to be the most common, then 5-dicing Spirit and 4-dicing Comet every turn will burn scrolls incredibly fast, much faster than a 2-dice spam with semi-useful spells.

Why I would never take Lore of Light:

It lacks usefuls spells, simple as that. It only has 1 damage spell spell with 24" range so unless you play with a big TG bunker your never gonna get any good Cleansing Flares off. The healing spell only regens 1 wound which is pretty unimpressive. The rest of the spells are semi-useful support spells, which means until turn 3 when there are some combats going on (depending on how combat oriented your army is) you will be casting 1 spell per turn (which happends to be a 1D6 S4 hits...wohoo...). There is a reason no body takes the LoL (a very fitting abbreviation), it just doesn't have versitale and effective spells, they are too situational.

Why I rarely take Lore of Heavens:

Lore of heavens is fairly useful. It can be good due to unlimited range on the damage spells, a super AoE spell with no LoS required and some okay buff spells. You already have Heavens on priests tho so chances are you already have access to most of those spells. The comet is far too random to be amazing tho, there is a 50% it won't come down, giving enemys a chance to escape. There is also a 50% chance it won't come down in your next turn too (for a 25% total of not coming down on 2 rolls) which means you are stuck with a RiP spell in play in your magic phase (often forcing you to cast other spells anyway and just skip the comet). On top of those VERY random elements it has a random range. When it hits it can REALLY do some damage, I've had it do a total of 8D6 S4 hits which is far superior to any other damage spells, but 25-50% your comets are going to be wasted (don't forget he can dispell RiPs in his magic phase with PDs). The rest of the spells are fairly useless and pretty situational, the Re-roll spells should cause 1-2 extra wounds on avarage which is worse than a damage spell.

 

[Bibamus]

isn't the comment 2D6 S4 within a D6 x #markers range?

 

[novatomato]

Its 2D6 S4 to each unit, friend or foe alike, within D6 x #of markers. So I guess you could say that if there are four units in the radius then it is technically 8D6.

 

[Bibamus]

yeah... more or less. you could be hiting fleeing troops that are under 25% of the models and so don't rally, friendly units etc.
it is technically 8D6 but you can't compare with the fire spell that can actually get to 8D6, same with the spells from demon lor of slaanesh/nurgle that can also get to 8D6. this may be instant and not relying on various tests, but i think my point still stands

 

[erians]

The 8D6 hit example was just to show how insanly hard the comet can hit against units that are clustered toghether, but it will rarely do more than 2-4 D6 when it comes down and as it often miss, get dispelled in the enemy magic phase or just doesnt come down at all the avarage is closer to 1-2D6 S4 per cast, and magic is inconsistent as it is without playing with really random spells.

 

[Bibamus]

i'm quite happy with heavens really. portent of far usually gets scrolled or 3 dice for dispell because i either cast it at skinks facing something nasty and big or on unit in CC. second sign i usualy exchange for portent of far... D3 rerolls for hits, wounds or saves is farely useless compared to the other spells. celestial ward or whatever its called is nice against shooting but i usually drop it for portent it i dont have it allready. the 2 magic missiles are wonderfull, especially uranon's and the comment is either a lot of damage if it goes off, and if not it either sucks up a scroll, some dispell dice or even better, enemy power dice working much like the diadem of power with a chance to kill something. RiP spells getting dispelled in the enemy phase are no that bad since it stops them from casting all the spells they want to and if its an army with no casters/ 1 scroll caddy they have 2-3 dice wich makes it hard to dispell. it did save my but a couple of tiems, alltough my opoonenets found the best way to dispell it is to kill the priest

 

[kroxigor01]

I agree with Erians on this.

Let's go though the Lore of Light...

Burning Gaze - Standard D6 magic missile. Solid.
Pha's Illumination - Make a character have 3 S5 attacks. Useless. Always. (particulalry for Lizardmen)
Healing Energy - Heal 1 wound. Situational at best. Compares poorly to Gift of Life and Steal Soul.
Dazzling Brightness - Give enemy WS1. An excellent spell. Unfortunately it is situational.
Guardian Life - Units within 12" are ItP. Useless. (within 12" of the Slann eh? LD9 Coldblooded then...)
Cleansing Flare - D6 S5 to enemies withing 12". Very good but situational.

The flaw in the Lore is that although it has 2 very good spells (Cleansing Flare and Pha's Illumination), but they are so situation as to only be needed maybe once or twice in the game. If the Lore had spells to spam early in the game to draw out Scrolls (eg. Rule of Burning Iron, 2D6 magic missiles, Doom and Darkness + Salamander panic test) then these spells could be game changing. But LoL doesn't, D6 S4 is not enough to draw scrolls, so when you get to the point in the game where you think "wow, I can make that Bloodthirster have WS1, doubling my Temple Guard's survivability and hitting power against him", you can't get the spell through.


Lore of Heavens however is a solid Lore... for a level 2 wizard. A Slann is wasted on the Lore of Heavens.

The 2 "Magic Missiles" (not actually defined as magic missiles, but in practice they are) offer nothing more then Lore of Fire does. Apart from ignoring armour, but that is still only 1 spell on the list, and only causes D6 hits (plus, Metal far surpasses Heavens for anti high armour troops).

The Comet is very situational. If it comes down immediately you may as well have cast a 2D6 magic missile. If it comes down later and could hit multiple targets... your opponent dispelled it.

Portent is excellent, and Second Sign of Amul compliments it nicely (cast portent on Saurus Cav, 3+ to hit rerolling 1s, but you with second sign you reroll the 2s as well, then you wound on 2s with rerolls. These two spells actually work with exponential returns when used together.). However, a Skink Priest can cast these spells just as well as a Slann can (if you are lucky enough to roll second sign).

Celestial Shield is situational. And is RiP. So if the enemy wants to shoot the unit they can dispel it before their shooting phase

 

[Angelus]

I find both Light and Heavens to be useful, but Light is more situational than heaven is. If I'm up against Daemons or Undead I almost always take the Lore of Light, but never against any other army. Heavens is an OK lore but I feel that there are several other lores that are more efficient for a Slann to take, especially since the priests always takes heavens.

 

[Thunder Lizard]

I thank you all for your input on this. The point of this tread was to point out that light and heavens are vastly underrated and often over looked. I do play a different style then some when it comes to casting. There really are only 2 types of players when it comes to casting. (Well for the most part) There are nukers (Majority or gamers) and spammers (Minority and me). A nuker will toss 4-5 dice to cast his slann spells. (Not including your priest casting ability which depends on build/spells) That makes your opponent save their DD or scrolls and makes them think “What do I dispel and what do I let go?” Then there are spammers, a caster that will try to cast as many spells as they can. Spammers only work due to Nukers. For example: if you are running LoL and LoH. Opponents are more likely to let porta or dazzling go off due to the fear of a bolt comet or flare. So if you 2 dice each spell AND they both cast dice gods permitting. Your opponent now has to battle himself. When the first spell goes off, your opponent most likely will DD it. When that second combat spell hits the table now he has to think. You have only used 3 respective casting dice (2 from you priest and 1 from your slann with the power of rumination) and your opponent has used 2-3 for one spell with a second staring him in the face. That fear of those bolts, comets, flares should make him second guess themselves and let one go. Once again these lores are not for direct damage. See metal, fire or death if that’s your game plan. With that said these lores are still very useful. They increase combat results in your favor, they can still provide a stiff (not game changing) direct damage attack, heal a wound and put a save up if needed. I’m not looking to change peoples minds I just feel these two lores have been given a bad wrap and are over looked as choices by LM and opponents.

Your Friendly Thunder Lizard