7th Ed. Giant Bow, or Blow Pipes?

[Moo]

I recently bought my first Battalion of LM, new box, my first WFB army. Since then I had a lucky sell of my old Necron army and was able to get one more new box, as well as an old box. I also got two Stegadons, and other assorted whatnots(heroes, lords, and a couple Razordons).

My question is, what should I run my Stegadon as? I know one is going to be a EoTG, but I want the other to be a Chief.

I'm going to be using the War Spear as his magic items for the extra impact hits, so the Blow Pipes of the Ancient would be obvious for the extra strength, but with the blowpipes at a 12' range, by the time I could use them I could charge.

The Bow seems best for the because of the longer range, and the fact that in another topic it seems that I can use the Chiefs BS. I'd lose a point of armor and a point of STR, but getting those extra shots before I get into charge range, and being able to penetrate ranks might be my best bet.

I know this is probably covered elsewhere, but it's midnight and I am tired, and honestly didn't think until after I had this typed up to search for it. I will search, but don't want to waste my thoughts by deleting this. I just want to make sure I'm making the best decision before I build it and regret it, granted I could always get a third if I need to.

Thank you all in advance.
Moo

 

[strewart]

Up to you really. You have to consider there is a significant points difference between the two, the bow steg is a lot cheaper, which will leave you free to buy other things. But the ancient is better. What do you want to use it for? Charge straight on? Flanker? The main use of blow pipes as I see it is you move up to the flanks then in the turn where you moved there and are ready for a charge, unleash pipes. Or maybe you find yourself just out of charge range, or you charged something and chased it down then have nothing in your charge arc, so need to move back into the battle, in that turn before your second charge you can shoot.

 

[lupercal]

i would say bow as your skinks should be doing the mass shooting while the bow can hit the big hard stuff plus the points you save not to mention a chief shooting the bow is just plain awesome

 

[Caneghem]

I personally think if you're going to spend 50 points on the spear, you might as well take advantage of it by putting it on the Ancient. Your chief gets a 2+ armor save from the ancient, and increasing the strength of all those impact hits (and regular attacks) is huge. For bypassing armor, you can use the engine of the gods or some salamanders. If you need to put some damage on a single monster type thing, massed blowpipes or a charge from your steg should do the trick, even terradons can inflict some good damage with their rocks followed by poison javelins.

The giant blowpipes aren't totally redundant, as they benefit from not taking the multishot penalty. This means they can move and shoot at long range and still cause poison on a 6. They also get large target line of sight, which would allow them to shoot at things the enemy is trying to screen.

 

[Doom Lizard]

If you want to bash stuff then spend for the ancient. All of those impact hits at the higher str. is awesome.

 

[Moo]

I think this is going to be a situation where I end up buying a third and have one of each so that I can run whatever one I want when the situation arises. And if I ever want to run two of the same, it just won't be WYSIWYG.


Thank you all for your responses and thoughts, I do appreciate it.

 

[Nosreme]

I say blow pipes. the BS of the skinks is just too low to make the bow a dependable weapon. BS 3, -1 for moving, -1 for long range... we're talking hitting on 6s here, providing no other mods. The blow pipes don't have the range, but make up for that with the sheer number of shots (4d6? Ouch!).

But you don't have a choice in the matter, really. Either you take a normal Steggy with the bow, or an ancient with the blow pipes. And the ancient is better than the standard steggy, so there you have it.

fact that in another topic it seems that I can use the Chiefs BS.

Totally uncomfirmed at this point. There is no reason to believe that you can use the chief's BS like an engineer.

 

[Scarloc]

There is no reason to believe that you cannot use the BS of the chief either.

 

[kakashi-sensi]

At this case it would be wise to confirm at the start of battles with your opponent.

As it is unconfirmed in rulings that you can or cannot use the Chiefs BS.

So try to confirm it with your opponent, if its a tournament talk to the officials about it. Its probably the best way to save your hide.

 

[Nosreme]

There is no reason to believe that you cannot use the BS of the chief either.

Actually, there is. It doesn't say you CAN. The rules are very clear that crew members are different than characters riding the steggy. Case in point, if the steggy dies, the crew is considered killed. But not the character. You can't have it both ways. The rules says he "replaces" a crew, not "joins" the crew. The crew man the guns, it never says a character can. The Empire Engineer can use his BS with the guns only because it specifically says so. Do you see the difference? By your logic, you can argue that the steggy can now fly because it doesn't say he can't. Some common sense has to be applied.

 

[Scarloc]

Replaces the crew means you remove one crewman and put him in. You do not get him and another 5 skinks. We have had an already large post discussing this at http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/bs-5-stegadon.694/ Most people seem to agree it is allowed and all the redshirts I and others have asked have also said so.

The reason the character does not die is because you have sunk another 100+ points into the character where as the crew are paid with the steggie. If you didnt get the character back it would be everyone killing the steggie with cannons and you would be screwed.

 

[Nosreme]

Replaces the crew means you remove one crewman and put him in. You do not get him and another 5 skinks. We have had an already large post discussing this at http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/bs-5-stegadon.694/ Most people seem to agree it is allowed and all the redshirts I and others have asked have also said so.

The reason the character does not die is because you have sunk another 100+ points into the character where as the crew are paid with the steggie. If you didnt get the character back it would be everyone killing the steggie with cannons and you would be screwed.

So what your're saying is that you want your cake and eat it too? You want him to be a crew member when it suits you, and a lone character when it doesn't. Gotcha. Well I'm sure you could argue the steggy is anything you want him to be. I've had this discussion down at my game stores, and they boys there tend to have a different view of it that yours, so who knows? I'll be using the BS of the chief when the FAQ says I can. I'll be happy to be wrong, because it would make the steggy shots all the more deadly!

 

[Scarloc]

No having the character come off a mount is pretty standard. Monsterous creatures and chariots do the same thing. Even if you have a Str 7 or more chariot instant kill you still get the character.

 

[Nosreme]

No having the character come off a mount is pretty standard. Monsterous creatures and chariots do the same thing. Even if you have a Str 7 or more chariot instant kill you still get the character.

Yes, because in those instances, the character is never really part of the crew. Hence why he lives on. The crew in chariots (such as a Tomb Kings unit) don't benefit from the TK's BS, do they? No, they don't.

 

[Scarloc]

But on a chariot there are no weapons mounted. The character would have to be grabbing the weapons from another model.

With your rules you would be saying a character on a chariot by himself could not use the chariot at all. No impact hits, no increased movement, heck depending on the wording he may not get an increased save. It is assumed that he gets all the standard abilities of the chariot. Why would a skink not.

Also I cannot think of any army where you get a character on a chariot with any crew members.

 

[Nosreme]

With your rules you would be saying a character on a chariot by himself could not use the chariot at all. No impact hits, no increased movement, heck depending on the wording he may not get an increased save. It is assumed that he gets all the standard abilities of the chariot. Why would a skink not.

Also I cannot think of any army where you get a character on a chariot with any crew members.

No, because the rules specifically state howdah weapons are fired by skink crew. The character is not a crew member in any sense. Why is he part of the crew when you want him to fire weapons?

Chaos chariots have crew (or used to - not sure of 7th ed), beastmen do. In the Tomb Kings army they form units. With your rules, since he's part of the unit, all the skeletons would get to use his BS, which is silly.

Trying to apply realism to Warhammer is a futile effort, though. Only the written rules matter. The rules state the guns are fired by skink crew. It doesn't say skink crew or character. Therefore, whether it makes logical sense or not, it's crew only. Yes, I agree with you that it makes sense that the character could realisitcally grab the gun and start shooting as well as any skink crew. But what if, for game balance sake, the designers decided that was too powerful?

 

[Scarloc]

The fact that he replaces a crew member is why he is part of the crew. If he was not then it would say something along the lines of 4 skink crewmen and a skink character.

We are talking about a single model having an increase not every crewman and not an entire unit. If abilities or items effect a unit it states so in their description.

Here we are discussing a unit that nothing similar exists in any other army and are trying to compare apples to oranges. The fact that he repaces a crewman not displacing him means he is a part of the crew and still meets the skink and crew requirements.

 

[strewart]

Chaos chariots have crew (or used to - not sure of 7th ed), beastmen do. In the Tomb Kings army they form units. With your rules, since he's part of the unit, all the skeletons would get to use his BS, which is silly.

Not quite. If his BS extended as far as your exageration is saying, then add a character and every skink on board gets that BS for its personal blow pipes and/or javelins. They don't, nor is it ever claimed. And both giant blow pipes would get BS 5 when the chief is present. Not quite, no one is claiming that. It is nothing at all like him extending his stats to a whole unit or even other models on a chariot, you are clutching at straws. It is him personally using a weapon that is sitting right in front of him and accessable by anyone on the stegadon. Not him sitting back and somehow magically giving his increased BS to some other skinks, or part of a unit or such.

@ Scarloc, I haven't counted but I would have thought that a chariot with a hero and one crew is more common than just the hero replacing all the crew. HE chariots have a character and a crew member too.

 

[Putros]

The fact that he replaces a crew member is why he is part of the crew. If he was not then it would say something along the lines of 4 skink crewmen and a skink character.

We are talking about a single model having an increase not every crewman and not an entire unit. If abilities or items effect a unit it states so in their description.

Here we are discussing a unit that nothing similar exists in any other army and are trying to compare apples to oranges. The fact that he repaces a crewman not displacing him means he is a part of the crew and still meets the skink and crew requirements.

Actually the book states that the character displaces a crewmember, not replaces. So to follow the wording, he goes in, crew member out. Probably not enough space for both. The difference to the wording is that replace could mean that he takes the crewmembers job etc. But displace just states that when the character goes in the basket, the crewmember goes out. It could be either way really, and ofcourse it would be nice if it became official that the chief could use the bow. But nothing is certain from how the rules are written, so players should just agree before their games wich way is better. (If a player doesent want to discuss it with their opponents/game leaders/whatever, they should just use it with crew BS) Thats my opinion of the matter.


And on topic, the difference in effect between 2d6 +1 str 5 and str 6 hits would be quite alot, including the normal attacks that will follow (6 more str 6 i belive, with an ancient and warspear) it should be enough to decimate the front rank of any unit it charges really (without Ye Olde bad luck that is) with 6 str you would wound on 2+ most of the time, and only a rare few infantry units would even get to save. If you throw the first lore of heavens spell on the stegadon, pretty much all hits will go through, and then you have as good as overrun

 

[strewart]

Yeah good point, lets leave the BS5 discussion in that thread. Here it is steg vs ancient steg.

An ancient steg actually has one less attack than a normal steg, and one less initiative. Sure it gets higher strength, a better save and blow pipes, but I think blow pipes are kinda on par with the giant bow anyway, depending on what you want to use it for. I would stick a chief on a normal steg and save the 50 points difference, chief attacks plus 2d6 impact hits plus steg attacks means really there won't be much difference between steg and ancient steg in that they will both either win easily or be facing something that is too tough.