7th Ed. Full Command on Saurus?

[harreh]

So I just bought the lizards batalllion box, and was wondering whether or not to assemble the saurus (a unit of 20) with full command, just a muso, a bearer or champion? or would I be better just hiding an old one/scar vet in there?

 

[Stegadeth]

Most folks use them with only a Standard Bearer plus Musician. I will use a Champion when I put a Scar-Vet in the unit to take a challenge instead of my Vet.

I say assemble the full command. If you absolutely had to you could always hide a musician or champion in a back rank. When you consider the "ideal" unit size is 18 in a 6x3 block anyway you only leave yourself one model shy of that plus full command anyway.

Of course the ideal option would be a spear shaft magnetized to have one of two tops: a spear head or a banner.

 

[BlackFrog]

The problem with a champ is that lone characters can challenge the champ, kill it and avoid any retaliation by the spears. Generally speaking a unit of spear saraus are better off without a champ. A unit of Temple guard on the other hand may want to keep their numbers as they tend to win through static CR as opposed to kills.

 

[spacelizard]

The problem with a champ is that lone characters can challenge the champ, kill it and avoid any retaliation by the spears.

Challengers can still be attacked by units not in the challenge, this was covered in one of the FAQ's of the BRB, so no avoiding "retaliation" (i.e. attacks) )from the spears.

 

[harreh]

Yeah I was thinking of not having a champ just for the challenges. I played a game at my local club on the weekend and man, a block of Saurus is just awesome, and as long as I can avoid challenges I probably will lol. Saurus seem solid enough without the extra points of a champ. 'Specially if i'm just going to hide a scar vet/oldblood in them anyway.

 

[erians]

Challengers can still be attacked by units not in the challenge, this was covered in one of the FAQ's of the BRB, so no avoiding "retaliation" (i.e. attacks) )from the spears.

Erhm what? No guys can strike at someone involved in a challange except the two guys in the challange. I can't find anything in the FAQ that would dispute this, do you have a Quote, link or page number for that?

The problem with a champ is that lone characters can challenge the champ, kill it and avoid any retaliation by the spears. Generally speaking a unit of spear saraus are better off without a champ.

If a lone character challange to champion to avoid getting struck by spears, how about declining the challange...?

I usually take Champions for multiple reasons;

1) 12 pts for an extra attack is nice, the argument that "for those pts you could take an extra saurus and get 2 extra attacks and 1 more wound !" doesnt hold any water as there is a limited amount of saurus in base contact. People often either forget or dont direct enought attacks to champions aswell so chances are he will be striking back with 3 attacks even if your entire front rank dies.

2) Challanges. There is no situation where a champion becomes a liability for challange reasons. If you dont want a challange, decline it (for example against multi-wound weapon wielding chars that rack up a ton of overkill). On the other hand you can use challanges to your advantage to protect the unit. If a dragon or bloodthirster that would normally kill a ton of saurii you sacrifice your champ which means a) you dont loose a bunch of expensive saurii, b) he can't get more than 6 CR even if he has 10000 attacks, so you won't be loosing by much even against bloodthirsters or black dragons that has a decent chance of killing 7+ saurii.

3) Protecting characters. If you have a Scar vet in the unit then you can place them next to each other and challange stuff that tries to get to your character. Its also good in situations where some super killy character declares a challange. Instead of either declining the challange and loosing any advantage the scar vet brings you can just sacrifice your champ. The other day I played a game against Dark elves, my scar vet + saurus unit was fighting a Black guard unit with Killing Blow blessing from a couldron. He challanged with his champ and I accepted with my champ instead of getting 3 ASF killing blow attacks with hate in the scar vets face. In the next round of combat there were only a few BGs left and the Scar vet had "killed" himself out from BTB with any enemy and couldnt be challanged.

If your are are above the pts limit by only a few pts then champions are usually the first thing to go, but they have their uses and offer a lot of tactical flexability.

Edit: if you have 20 saurus you can probably go for full command, the most common Saurus unit sizes are 18, 15 and 12, which means you have some spare saurus anyway. A champion is also very easy to hide inside the units (unlike a standard).

 

[Stegadeth]

Saurus seem solid enough without the extra points of a champ. 'Specially if i'm just going to hide a scar vet/oldblood in them anyway.

Having a Hero in a unit is the best reason to have a champion in that unit.

Let's say your 18 Saurus Warrior block gets charged by a Chaos Lord on a Chaos Dragon mount. Let's say he has Frenzy, the Helm of Many Eyes and a Hellfire Sword which grants him an extra attack plus one extra attack from the Dragon, Always Strikes First and unsaved wounds turn into D3+1 wounds. This Chaos Lord has a rule that he must issue a challenge if he himself is not challenged!


Scenario One: 18 Saurus without Champ
The challenge is issued. No one there to take it. This Close Combat monstrosity has 13 attacks and all of them beat a Saurus Warrior's initiative regardless of the Lord's ASF rule. 6 of those WS8 (3+ to hit) attacks can generate D3+1 wounds each and those are hitting at S5. The other 7 are from a Dragon! You are losing a lot of models, maybe even your entire front rank (assuming you are fighting in one rank for the Armour Bonus). No hits back, possibly outnumbered by fear causing unit, all sorts of nasty.

Scenario Two: 18 Saurus with Champ
Refuse the challenge and it is as above with no hits back, just beaten down.

Scenario Three: 17 Saurus with Scar-Vet no Champ
Refuse the challenge and as above. Accept the challenge and kiss that Scar-Vet goodbye before he even gets in one attack. The good news is you have 17 Saurus left and hopefully a magic or movement phase to do something about that dratted Chaos Lord! Maybe your Slann who has a Bane Head on him can Rule of Burning Iron him! Maybe your Stegadon with War Spear can charge him before the next Close Combat. Maybe your Cold One Cavalry can flank him while another unit rear charges him. Your Scar-Vet bought you time, which you need.

Sscenario Four: 16 Saurus Warriors, 1 Champion, 1 Scar-Vet
Now this time the Champ takes the challenge. Sure, he is dead, and overkilled dramatically but Overkill caps at +5 and you still have 16 Saurus Warriors and a Scar-Vet alive. As above, you have bought time. Maybe next Close Combat the Lord is dead and only the Dragon is left. He can't challenge. Maybe you get all of your Scar-Vet's attacks back plus a new unit charged to save your Saurus' bacon.

For the cost of one extra Saurus it seems pretty obvious to me that if you put a character in a unit a champion is worth it. It could buy you the time you need to save that block from fleeing off the board. A Champion can, even without a Scar-Vet, keep you from being outnumbered by a fear causing unit because you can only lose one model to a character with multiple attacks.

Of course, it can vary by opponent too. I have a WoC playing friend who just loves HeroHammer so I see a lot of characters geared to the teeth who just love the challenge what he knows will be weaker characters. Anyway, that's how I see it.

 

[harreh]

hmmm. Thanks for the excellent replies guys, I assembled them last night with full command, and i'm going to try them out in a unit of 12 tonight in a 550 point game. I'm still super new to fantasy, so the advice is really helpful. Hopefuly I can pull out a win tonight, going up against an empire gunline. Skink screens FTW i guess.

 

[spacelizard]

Challengers can still be attacked by units not in the challenge, this was covered in one of the FAQ's of the BRB, so no avoiding "retaliation" (i.e. attacks) )from the spears.

Erhm what? No guys can strike at someone involved in a challange except the two guys in the challange. I can't find anything in the FAQ that would dispute this, do you have a Quote, link or page number for that?

My mistake; I was misremembering this:

Characters engaged in a challenge are still in base to base contact with other friendly/enemy models. Thus the challenge participants may be affected by magic items/abilities originating from outside the combat (and vice versa).

This does allow something like a Skaven Censer's poison gas to still damage challengers, but it doesn't allow regular attacks to hit them, as the book says.