8th Ed. First game - my thoughts

[syypher]

Hi guys, had my first game now with lizardmen vs a Teclis HE list. Luckily my Dispel Scroll Skink, Feedback Scroll, negation of 6's and Banehead all lead to a more "calm" magic phase vs Teclis. He still wrecked during it but not as much as he normally would to other armies, like my WoC army...that would have been utterly destroyed.

Well here are a couple of my thoughts from the game so far, I've been playing for a while now and tabletop is definitely different from reading about armies. Tell me what you agree, disagree or any advice you could lend please.

1) Salamanders are great, but not as much as people hold them out to be. HE are T3 so they were actually some of my prime targets however when the width/depth of the models aren't very big then the template actually doesn't hit as much as most people assume them to hit in the perfect world vacuum environments. Now I said they are still great remember? I love them for what they do, but now am thinking of taking 2x units of 1 instead of 2x 2. Save points and it can be better spent elsewhere IMO.

2) Terradons used properly are really awesome. Drop rocks = win and skirmish movement is just awesome.

3) Skirmisher skinks are really awesome at taking out loan mages and the like. Took out a lone mage with some of them.

4) Chamo skinks are my love. They are great at what they do. However I still fail to see how they are good at taking out "monsters" like Hydras. S3 means the hydra still gets his full saves doesn't it? 4+ armor save then 4++ regen I believe. Auto-wounding sounds awesome but high chance the wounds are going to be saved...

5) Stegadons are funny. I like the Ancient Steg but may opt for EoTG next time. The Ancient Steg blowpipes are so short range...If I'm that close, most of the time I would assume I would be doing my charge instead.

6) Single Vet on CO tooled out to go around and flank/ kill rear targets are awesome. Such a threat and very cheap! Probably my favorite thing I've used.

7) Saurus Warriors should be run IMO 30 minimum. I don't think 24 cuts it...not with all the magic and shooting now that armies can run. I will probably roll with units of 30/36 as my comfort zone.

8) TG...meh...love the models but honestly...probably not going to run them very much. Save lots of points to put into other things and get my Slann Ethereal next time.

9) Skink Priest scroll caddys are awesome. Keep them hidden behind the blocks casting Iceshards waiting to dispel. Funny looking and great to use.


Needless to say I had A LOT of fun playing my first Liz game. It was great and I am definitely going to be loving on this army for a long while. Thanks for all your guys help

 

[Shaynoor]

Congrats on your first game, and win?

Next to dwarfs, I think we got some really powerful antimagic/lone mage slaying options.

Yearh, Salamanders are truly great and even more so, if you can hit your enemy on the flank. They do suffer from diminishing return though. The more you kill, the less effective they might be next round, because of fewer targets. I also run mine as 2x1, I prefer the manouvrebility. As much as I like them, I would rather have the option to take razordons too. Yes, they are arguably less effective against most armies. But as flank protectors or speed bumps holy **** and against the new Ogres? Obviously I like to field as many different kind of monsters from my list as possible.


I do too love my terradons! Flying skirmishers with an autohit rock? Hell Yeah! These guys are my favourite, they are squishy but fun. Use them to bomb squishy targets, as threat to warmachines, blocking enemy units, rearcharge support in allready engaged combats (for +2 Combat resolution from rear charge) OR use them what they a best for: Hunt down fleeing targets!


Mobile skirmishers, yes they are nice. I use them to hide my priests. And I often see myself running these guys into a forrest (we dont do magic terrain) here they get the stubborn rule or as redirectors against frenzied units!


Chamos are also very fun and even more effective than terradons. Yes they are str 3. But use one of your salamanders or light flaming magic missile at it first, to negate regen effect. Then hit it with poison attacks.
Man, have I seen many opponents go for my chamos as the first thing. I prefer units of 5-6 so I can easier deploy them and allthough they are greaat, I still find them too exepensive to deploy in bigger units. I believe there is a guide in the tactic section.


I always bring my ancient steg. But just like you, I also want to try EOTG sometimes, just to vary. True the range of blowpipes is just 12", but you can walk 6" first and then shoot. Stegadons can even stand and shoot against charging targets (should you be unlucky not to charge first).. I am a shadow user myself, and I am yet to try "steed of shadows" on my EOTG, I dont know if it would be violating the rules. But imaging flying it close to the center of the enemy and use burning allignment on anyone arround. I have also thought of war-sspear steg, but if I fly close to the enemy, I am likely to be charged first.

Scar vets are sure some of the more powerful/hitty Heroes in warhammer, and while we still have a lot of magic options in our 7ed book, we can design many heroes, each with an different purpose. I mainly use mine to make my units rerollable and stubborn.

I also find my saurii to be in minimum unit sizes of 24. If I go larger I usually put both my scar vets in and make the unit go 7x5 Shooting is indees much of a threat, even moreso If you only got one big unit. Which is why you very quickly would engage or eliminate enemy warmashines.

TG?... I never use those Either, I run a solo shadow slann with +2 against ranged. I used to to etheral too, but as I am using shadow I find my self shuffling around with my spare priests or flying with steed of shadows. I know that he eventually might be hit by ranged attacks, we have all seen those 1's coming. But hey, he got 5 wounds and is T 4. I run my slann fairly cheap. Hate putting to many points in one basket, but if you are not a shadow slann, I would defiantly go for etheral too.

I have 3 skink priests, to allow my slann shuffling around. I am still testing if they all should have some magic items (blood statuette, dispels scroll and cloak of feather to be shuffling even more) or just be run as plain "dice generators".. I put mine into my skink skirmishers. in this way, they get the 2+ "look-out-sir" and if they run into a wood, even stubborn. with three priests. The likelihood of getting comets or any other nice spell is way bigger.


I really like they variety a Lizardmen army can muster. And I find myself constantly tweaking my list (still playing and teasting my shadow list, which you may find in the armylist forum)

 

[Taipan]

Hi guys, had my first game now with lizardmen vs a Teclis HE list. Luckily my Dispel Scroll Skink, Feedback Scroll, negation of 6's and Banehead all lead to a more "calm" magic phase vs Teclis. He still wrecked during it but not as much as he normally would to other armies, like my WoC army...that would have been utterly destroyed.

Why not just Curse-Charm his face? Instead of wasting time trying to dispel, just snipe him out. Once he dies, the Phoenix Guard he was rolling with become less of a problem. 'Dweller's is also a good choice vs High Elves, as their weak Strength on profile makes the highly susceptible.

1) Salamanders are great, but not as much as people hold them out to be. HE are T3 so they were actually some of my prime targets however when the width/depth of the models aren't very big then the template actually doesn't hit as much as most people assume them to hit in the perfect world vacuum environments. Now I said they are still great remember? I love them for what they do, but now am thinking of taking 2x units of 1 instead of 2x 2. Save points and it can be better spent elsewhere IMO.

I agree mostly with this. Salamanders are hands down the best non-magical artillery we have, bar none. In an army that largely doesn't shoot, or has awfully overpriced methods of doing so (235 per bolt thrower, and they're only S5 at that, or S4 dakka lizards that still have to roll to hit), they are gold. That said, don't overinvest in them. 2 is enough for most purposes, 3 is going to really put the pain on your opponent. Also, by keeping them alone and separated, you force your opponent to kill each one separately.

2) Terradons used properly are really awesome. Drop rocks = win and skirmish movement is just awesome.

Against High Elves maybe, other armies laugh at random S4 drops.

3) Skirmisher skinks are really awesome at taking out loan mages and the like. Took out a lone mage with some of them.

Oh lol. Why doesn't he attach them to friendly infantry?

4) Chamo skinks are my love. They are great at what they do. However I still fail to see how they are good at taking out "monsters" like Hydras. S3 means the hydra still gets his full saves doesn't it? 4+ armor save then 4++ regen I believe. Auto-wounding sounds awesome but high chance the wounds are going to be saved...

Hydras are the god-tier of monsters in Fantasy, because they can Regen cannonballs and they're not overpriced. Against other stuff, poision darts are pretty good, because monsters rarely have good armour saves and are highly reliant on their high Toughness to keep them alive. Tomb Kings in particular hate Skinks, as their Necrosphinx and Warsphinx T8 mean nothing to the toad venom we infect them with lol.

5) Stegadons are funny. I like the Ancient Steg but may opt for EoTG next time. The Ancient Steg blowpipes are so short range...If I'm that close, most of the time I would assume I would be doing my charge instead.

I'm curious as to why you don't take an EOTG. 5+ ward is fantastic for shutting down warmachine fire (which rely on powerful single shots usually), and for generally improving the lifespan of your infantry. Not to mention 'Burning Alignment' is pretty amazing when you get into the enemy gunline.

6) Single Vet on CO tooled out to go around and flank/ kill rear targets are awesome. Such a threat and very cheap! Probably my favorite thing I've used.

Stupidity sucks though, and you can teleport Scar-Vets into position with a Shadow Slann anyway (which saves points for cool magical gear to make the Scar-Vet tougher or more killy).

7) Saurus Warriors should be run IMO 30 minimum. I don't think 24 cuts it...not with all the magic and shooting now that armies can run. I will probably roll with units of 30/36 as my comfort zone.

I don't agree. Saurus don't get better the more points you invest, they reach their peak of efficiency at about 18-25 strong then sharply drop off. WS3 sucks, I1 sucks, and you can't always rely on magic to get around those two huge drawbacks.

8) TG...meh...love the models but honestly...probably not going to run them very much. Save lots of points to put into other things and get my Slann Ethereal next time.

I'd advise against that. Temple Guard are pretty much the only reasonably-priced combat unit we have (Saurus are way too gimped to be worth their points, but sadly we have no other viable Core alternatives, Skink blowpipes are for suicide not for holding ground). They're also the only mage bunker in the game that works in both shooting and close-combat (all other armies kiss their Wizard goodbye if you charge their bunker, because he's in the first rank and bound to be assassinated).
Ethereal Slann are good for laughs, but it only takes a 'Pit' or 'Dwellers' to hit the Slann, or a dude with a magical weapon or magical attacks (pretty much every combat character in the game, plus certain artillery) to hit him, and the Hypno-Toad is gone. Plus, even if he's invulnerable to his attacker, you can still tie him up in close-combat to prevent him casting spells.

9) Skink Priest scroll caddys are awesome. Keep them hidden behind the blocks casting Iceshards waiting to dispel. Funny looking and great to use.

Yeah, it's pretty much the only job they're good at. Heavens magic is so lackluster that trying to get good spells on them is pointless.

 

[Agrem]

1) Salamanders are great, but not as much as people hold them out to be. HE are T3 so they were actually some of my prime targets however when the width/depth of the models aren't very big then the template actually doesn't hit as much as most people assume them to hit in the perfect world vacuum environments. Now I said they are still great remember? I love them for what they do, but now am thinking of taking 2x units of 1 instead of 2x 2. Save points and it can be better spent elsewhere IMO.

Salamanders have two great features. First they are able to deal damage in great numbers and secondly even with one casualty you force your opponent to roll panic. i have got used to play with just one unit of 2 salamanders and I usually find that to be more than enough. More could be a bit overkill.

2) Terradons used properly are really awesome. Drop rocks = win and skirmish movement is just awesome.

Agreed. I have found that one unit of 4 suits my playstyle the best. Even with one down the unit is still quite effective and I rarely find myself needing another unit.

3) Skirmisher skinks are really awesome at taking out loan mages and the like. Took out a lone mage with some of them.

Agreed also. I rarely see lone mages but still. Usually redirector unit.

4) Chamo skinks are my love. They are great at what they do. However I still fail to see how they are good at taking out "monsters" like Hydras. S3 means the hydra still gets his full saves doesn't it? 4+ armor save then 4++ regen I believe. Auto-wounding sounds awesome but high chance the wounds are going to be saved...

Well hydra might be the toughest opponent for these but think of all those other monsters with just one save or none at all. Autowounding against high toughness opponents is just that good.

5) Stegadons are funny. I like the Ancient Steg but may opt for EoTG next time. The Ancient Steg blowpipes are so short range...If I'm that close, most of the time I would assume I would be doing my charge instead.

I think the only time the blowpipes are usually used is that there is too long charge distance or stand and shoot. Otherwise just go for close combat. EOTG is a stegadon too so I think you should charge with it also but I find the priest to be still a bit too unprotected so I don't know if it's worth it.

6) Single Vet on CO tooled out to go around and flank/ kill rear targets are awesome. Such a threat and very cheap! Probably my favorite thing I've used.

I love these too. Just look out for those cannonballs.

7) Saurus Warriors should be run IMO 30 minimum. I don't think 24 cuts it...not with all the magic and shooting now that armies can run. I will probably roll with units of 30/36 as my comfort zone.

Also agreed. They need to be able to sustain some damage before they get into close combat. But I think 30 models would be the max amount.

8) TG...meh...love the models but honestly...probably not going to run them very much. Save lots of points to put into other things and get my Slann Ethereal next time.

TG is good but as said saurus warriors are not that far behind so you can easily save the points. I still think the 2+ ward save is better option for slann than the ethereal since the ward gives protection against magic too.

9) Skink Priest scroll caddys are awesome. Keep them hidden behind the blocks casting Iceshards waiting to dispel. Funny looking and great to use.

Agreed. Not much more to say.

BR
Agrem

 

[T`hinker`er]

Great discussion guys! Not much to add, but I will say, if you are just going to be using your skinks as redirectors, why not save some points and take them as a RnF unit? I'm finding this working well when running skinks up the middle. My skirmishers are far too effective to risk anywhere by on the flanks, where they double as Salamander protectors until I can get my sallies onto the side corner of that big block I want to burn.

As for lone Mages, I see this often before a Mage rolls 6 dice, as my opponents often want to get out of his bunker unit just in case he should roll a miscast and have to place the big template on him.

Still waiting for the right time to try the Steg and the Terradons in my list...looking forward to trying these out.

 

[Taipan]

Great discussion guys! Not much to add, but I will say, if you are just going to be using your skinks as redirectors, why not save some points and take them as a RnF unit? I'm finding this working well when running skinks up the middle. My skirmishers are far too effective to risk anywhere by on the flanks, where they double as Salamander protectors until I can get my sallies onto the side corner of that big block I want to burn.

Well, the thing is, you're gimping yourself into one tactic with them, when blowpipe Skinks have two (or even three). Blowpipes can kill most monsters (the few that have decent armour saves you can still chip away at), you can annoy the hell out of your opponent by blocking his march moves, or forcing him to assault you. And of course, Skinks will snipe any non-bunkered Mage quite effectively (and they're fast enough to catch foot models).
The ranked Skinks don't do much except bring Krox as Core, and even then only in tiny quantities. T2 and S3 is complete garbage, and unlike Skavenslaves taking mega-units isn't feasible as they aren't 2pts per model. Saurus suffer from I1 and WS3, but they at least have the Strength and Toughness (and actual armour) to carry combat well enough (and with some Light magic, they turn into pretty nasty close-combat units).

As for lone Mages, I see this often before a Mage rolls 6 dice, as my opponents often want to get out of his bunker unit just in case he should roll a miscast and have to place the big template on him.

They're probably wasting a lot of dice trying for an IF nuke or huge buff spell. In which case, you can laugh, because of three things.
Firstly, he's burning a lot of power dice (even at maximum power dice, it's half his pool) on one spell. If he doesn't IF, you can dispel it (Cube or dispel scroll, or by throwing 6 dispel dice at it+Level 4 Slann).
Secondly, he's exposing his Mage to your assassination units, which is just dumb. Lizardmen have some pretty cool units to do this with, but other armies have even faster and harder hitting assassins. Most armies don't have a lot of Wizards, so at the very least he's losing a Lore, access to certain spells and some arcane gear (as low-Levels usually carry the dispel scroll and other army-beneficial stuff so the Lord mage can take a ward save or a more powerful arcane item). If it's his Lord mage, it's probably a Level 3 or Level 4, which is even more costly (Lord mages are usually the ones with Loremaster, or the ability to have extra spells).
Lastly, if he does IF, he miscasts, and probably dies. So, even if the damage he was fearing occurs, the Mage still dies anyway. If not from the miscast, then definitely from the assassination unit heading his way.

Still waiting for the right time to try the Steg and the Terradons in my list...looking forward to trying these out.

Definitely use the EOTG at least once. Other armies would kill for the Gungan Shield

 

[syypher]

Ok so since this thread I've had quite a few games.

Most of my thoughts still stand. Except now I dislike the Stegadon in a competitive environment, like where I play. Most everyone runs tournament/league type lists and the Stegadon just IMO doesn't cut it.

Also on the TG I still don't know...you can get 30 Saurus Warriors for the price of 20 TG. You also run the risk of killing a lot of them if you IF. Which means normally you'll want to get cupped hands. (Let's face it that your opp. won't always let you have Throne of Vines up) Cupped hands neuters one of the strongest combos you can pull off with your Slann, Cogitation + Banehead + Feedback scroll.

With all those things said I don't like the TG as much because of all those drawbacks which IMO outweigh their pluses.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Interesting points. I usually take 2 skirmishing units with javelin and one ranked up unit of 10 skinks. The Javelins just make more sense to me than the blowpipes because you can't often double tap with BS3 - remember if you need 7's to hit you don't get the benefit of poison. The ranked unit of 10 is super cheap, gives me a 10 shot stand and shoot and then causes my enemy's best unit to be cocked sideways because of how I angle my unit. Naturally he wins the combat. I want him to. Then I counter attack him in the flanks. One time I even used this tactic to force his unit into an angle where my Saurus got a rear charge. That was lovely

I agree about the questionable tactical value of exposing a mage just to throw 6 dice, which are often wasted when a dispel scroll is still available to me. In my last game the High Elves tried this, only to be dispelled and then have the mage eaten by my Salamander. A turn or two later the other Mage got peppered by chamelon blowpipes. I have a feeling he's going to leave his Mages in their bunker units in the next game...

I will try the EOTG once for sure...just need to get that model assembled and painted. So much to do!