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8th Ed. First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any advice?

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TLDR Version: Played skaven need tips on

1) Where to put the slann so he doesn't get dreaded 13thed into a rat. I did not have becalming cognition, re-looking at the range I believe that becalming and dreaded 13th have exactly the same range so this may have been a solution?

2) What units of ours work well vs the abomination or the plague furnace? Maybe I should have scouted my chameleons to get shots on these in the very beginning instead of going for the warp lightning cannons?

3) What are some general good engages vs a skaven opponent? I can take just about any lizardmen list (we do not play with characters).


Long Version:So this last weekend I had my first encounter with Skaven. For some reason they are not that popular around here. The game started really well with my chameleons killing a warp lightning cannon causing his Jezreels to run off the board. I was able to dwellers a nice big unit on my first turn as well and take out his warlord.

Unfortunately the next turn of he dreaded 13th my slann unit and turned everything into rats. It was still a pretty good game in the end but I was left a little confused on how to beat skaven. We were playing 2800pts and he had

Grey seer in a large unit of clanrats (i think)
Plague Furnace in a large unit of clanrats
Large unit of stormvermin with a warlord (he failed his str test on dwellers so i never saw him in cc)
Hellpit Abomination
2 units of slaves
Some rat that had spinning blades
2 Warpfire cannons
Large unit of Jezreels
12-14 gutter runners, i can't remember how much.

In each phase of the game I felt i was outmatched.
In shooting his cannons and jezreels outmatched my poison shots by a fair share. The cannons spent time trying to kill my stegadon.

In magic his spells were stronger, plague and the -1 permanent toughness hex as well as dreaded 13th seemed to be a clear step above what i could bring. I didn't get a chance to see though as the slann turned into a cute little rat that stabbed a saurus in the head.

Most surprisingly to me was that I felt i was disadvantaged in CC as well. That plague furnace in a unit of troops is incredibly strong and won vs a 35 saurus unit with a scar vet bsb. I had no steadfast because he had so many clanrats with it. And the Abomination was stronger than i thought as well. The hardest thing for me is that everything moves so fast, it was into CC much quicker than I thought it was going to be.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

1. Take Becalming and/or a dispel scroll.
2. Put your Slann in a larger unit that cannot be insta-ratted by Dreaded 13th. Like that size 35 Saurus block.
3. WLC cannons are good, but very unreliable. Jezzails are good, but really expensive.
4. Gutter Runners are usually more a threat than the big guns, baring lucky rolls with the artillery. Mounted scar-vets and rock-dropping Terradons take them out.
5. Never get in combat with an Abomination. I've charged one with a Burning Blade scar-vet AND an Ancient Stegadon and lost them both. Plink at it with poison and magic, make it waste time killing skinks, only use combat as a last resort to finish an injured Abomination. And even then be sure to buff with magic anything that fights it!
6. Plague Furnace goes down quick to poison since it has absolutely no save. It's also frenzied so you can greatly control its movement by forcing overruns. It really should not see combat against a Lizardmen army.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

A smart Skaven player can still get Dreaded 13th off even in the face of Becalming Cogitation. The Grey Seer will be just within 24" of the unit, but will take advantage of the Slann being in the middle to stay more than 24" from the Slann.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

You can also run skrox units at the caster of the dreaded 13th. That unit is immune to that spell.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

I play Skaven as my main opponent. I'll admit I haven't faced the plague furnace however I do regularly go against the WLC and do have to frequently defend against the Dreaded.

WLC cam be dealt with by Skinks of the Chamo variety even Skirmishers if you get a scenario where you start close together. The abom should be fed Skinks as previously stated. Once you've whittled it down charge it with a Scar Vet with burning attacks preferably. Buffing the Scar Vet will always help but I roll one that can do it on his own, he is my main solution to it in low point games, once you've gotten rid he can double up as a tarpit or up warmachine hunter to mop what the Skinks haven't already killed.

In terms of the Slann I'm a fan of focus of mystery and using terrain to block line of sight against the cannon, there is only one after all. I find my oponent is usually to busy dealing with Saurs blocks and Salamnaders handing a beat down to go after my Slann, although Gutter Rumners can carry a threat so I do often babysit he Slnn or just move it up with my Saurus.

In terms of the dreaded just dispel? I'm nOt a fan of nplating up my Slann with a side of Temple Guardit makes them too juicey a target even at high points games just take mystery and be careful with the placement.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

So I played the same opponent again tonight and I was tabled by turn 4. Skaven are just so strong (not to mention he is a very very good player).

I again had problems with the cannons. We are playing at 2800 pts so his list is pretty big. He also has enough units that I can not get the chameleons scouting into a position to kill the cannons. In this last game I scouted for the HPA instead of the cannons and I think all together I threw something like 35 shots into it. It still didn't die (6 wounds, with regen). I only takes it two turns to get into combat routinely.

The two cannons probably killed about 700pts worth of units as I would get my monsters tied up with slaves and then blow to small pieces routinely.

The jezeals killed the scar vet on turn two before he could get to the cannon. The furnace moved a lot farther than I expected and was in combat in turn two as well. Bad enough that it just bounced over my skinks into my stegadon killing both. The steg was already very wounded from a cannon.

My slann survived this time though.

Skaven are just so strong at every aspect, their magic is insane because of the spells. They have one that is like dwellers but does it on toughness instead as well as the dreaded 13th.

They also have an easy way to lower toughness and they have good combat units. When we get the battle report up i'll post it and you guys can tell me what I did wrong.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

Hey

Only had two games vs Skaven myself, but as i understand it the are a terrible match-up for Lizardmen. They have several tools to realy hurt us - WLC, Random movement to prevent fleeing, Dreaded Thirteenth vs a high infantry army, Stormbanner to nerf your Terradons.

They do have worse combat blocks than we do, but they are significantly cheaper.



The priority, I think, is the Cannons. They can devastate you blocks, and snipe your slann if your unlucky or have survived a 13th or a doom rocket. Terradons work wel for this (if they can get past the stormbanner) or chameleon skinks/skink skirmishers.

The abom is tricky. You cant flee from it, and its movent is unpredicable. I use Light, so he gets a boosted Burning Gaze straight up, then posioned. Ruby Ring can help too, as he's only T5. other than that, feed him skinks/terradons.

Try not to get into combat with the slaves for more than a coule of turns. They stay forever and cost NO points, and you'll literally waste the game killing them whilst being blasted with magic and guns. Salamanders are your friends against Skaven, so get them into position and fire away. If your opponent wants them gone, its resources he's not putting into your slann.


Poison destroys The furnace, and as skink units start to get whittled down theycan sit infront of it at an angle and force an overrun. You might not get nay points for the unit, but you should be bale to neutralise it.



As for the slann, becalming is the winner here. Wont stop him casting spells, but will make your life easier, and you will always have the chance to dispell. Just decide which spell is going to hurt the most that phase, and focus on stopping that. As mentioned, make sure the seer is within 24 of the slann, not the unit.




Other than that, if you an kill the seer, youre onto a winner. No Ld bubble, no powerful magic. If he's not on a bell and youre running soloslann, maybe death and banehead??



But dont feel down about getting smashed by skaven, especially not a list with two cannons and an abomb. IMO the combination of those three is almost an army in itself.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

The safest way to not get Dreaded 13th is to:

1. Take Becalming Cogitation
2. Take Dispel Scroll
3. Take Divine Plaque of Protection
4. Take a Cube of Darkness

Run the Slann solo or in a skirmish bunker or else the Grey Seer will just hit your unit. You have a 2+ ward against shooting and you'll have a 4+ LoS against the WLC. It is impossible for him to cast Dreaded 13th on you without being becalmed and you still have 2 scrolls if he somehow does. The end result is no dead frog.

Railroad the HPA with Camo Skinks (your terradons will spend the first two turns on the ground so leave them behind your lines). Then hit it with either a flaming Scar Vet or zulu dawn it with poison.

Skaven are a very hard match-up as they don't have to give you any points if they don't want to and you lose a few turns of shooting and good movement to the storm banner. Death magic on your Slann is a great way to go, it lets you easily snipe characters and the HPA.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

I fight skaven a lot, here is my take on their army as a whole:

My number one priority in facing a skaven army is always the same, break their leadership. Removing their general ( who is also normally their best caster ) and their bsb means that they will not pass any more leadership tests and the game is yours.

Yes WLC's and HPA's are scary, but their army shatters when they have to take panic checks on leadership 4. Even the HPA is leadership 8.

First off, some slave limitations:
1. They can only shoot into units of slaves if the unit is composed entirely of slaves. That means the skaven cannot fire into melee if a character is in the slave unit and you are safe.
2. If there are no characters in the unit, then the general is probably within 12 inches, and thats within your charging distance.
3. If the slaves are not within 12 inches of the general, they are leadership 2 and will break.

So now that slaves are slightly less frightening, lets move on to skinks. Skinks are our answer to many problems and skaven are uniquely suited to hunting them down because of the HPA and doomwheel. I find that the best way to use our skinks is to hunt the plague furnace and screaming bell which have a special rule that allows you to attack the furnace/bell with ranged attacks despite being in a unit. While skinks are also good at hunting down the HPA and doomwheel, the skinks normally dont get a round of shooting before getting moved into. So dont rely on your opponents ignorace to keep your skinks alive.

Next up is the HPA. This thing is awful and there is no consistant way of dealing with it, stegadons, scar vets, and skrox are your best bet. I have killed more HPA's by winning combat and running them down than actually killing them. Go into the game being okay with your opponent's HPA making it's points back.

WLC. A WLC that doesnt blow itself up by turn 6 has probably shredded your army and you lost the game. Terradons and chameleons are the best way of handling it. Failing that, get your combat blocks and stegs into combat so they cannot be shot at. If possible, I often charge the WLC with my skinks or terradons instead of shooting. Normally it moves me away from the battle line and is an easy combat to win. Especially nice if you can overrun into another cannon.

That said, the skaven player will try to protect his cannons because he knows how powerful they are. Be a better general than him. Failing that, be a better dice roller.

I have a couple skaven players in my area, and none of them play jezzails, so I cannot speak from experience on them.

All skaven infantry: handle them with saurus and salamanders, you will shred them.

Good luck, and godspeed.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

Excellent summation and advice by Dan, he truly is skillful :D

Regarding jezzails, they are tough on steggies and exposed characters but they are subject to all the normal shooting penalties. That being the case, simply attach a scar vet cowboy to a unit of ranked skinks and the skinks will die rather than him (from jezzail fire only). For steggies, use any type of cover and the chance of being hit goes down dramatically. Since your skaven opponent is using WLC & jezzails, it is possible that he does not bring the storm banner. This is great news for terradons since they can go after the jezzails or WLC and crush them in combat and it also means skink shooting will retain its autowound poison. It might also be time to try a lore other than life. Light would work very well and even fire could be useful since it has several spells that would help bring down a HPA and flame cage is fantastic for cutting a horde of T3 troops down to size.
 
Re: First Encounter with Skaven... and Dreaded 13th. Any adv

Thank you all for the really good advice. Here is the first game we played. Right now my list is locked as it is for a "friendly" tournament (meaning we are supposed to go easy on the powerlist building) at the end of the month and everything has already been submitted.

http://youtu.be/fb-NFhk_ef4
 
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