Fantasy RPGs, race and ethnicity, mostly D&D

[Scalenex]

I'm building a detailed fantasy setting for D&D or maybe Pathfinder. The short version is that Nine deities rebelled against the tyrannical creator of the world and took over. Dragons were the first mortals to rule the world, but they screwed up warring among themselves and nearly destroyed the world. Then the Nine made Elves to take over and then the Elves nearly destroyed the world. Then the Nine created Humans to take over. All the other fantasy races are created by individual gods rather than the collective so they aren't as numerous.

I have a lot of work done but I'm missing two details. I have yet to draw a world map I'm particularly satisfied and I need to figure out how I want to do race and ethnicity.

A lot of D&D settings, everyone is white. That's the Tolkien norm and a few people have joked about the Lord of Rings movies lacking diversity. Dark Sun is all white people despite being a baking desert. Pretty sure Dragonlance is too. Not sure about Greyhawk but all the art I see for it is white people.

Games Workshop vaguely follows the real world except Native Americans do not exist, they are Lizardmen. Black people don't exist either, they are either Lizardmen or skeletons. GW had a very racist depiction of pygmies in the Southlands but they ret-conned it away. The WHF has a lot of Asian inspired people but they are almost never involved in the action.

Rich Burlew's Order of the stick has three continents, one with Asian looking people, one with white people, and one with Semetic people. Black people are a minority in every land it seems. Rich Burlew worked on a fantasy setting based on one small land mass, but he couldn't sell merchandise for it so he left it half finished. There are many different skin tones found in close proximity to each other. Most are something along the lines of "Celtic inspired only they are dark skinned).

Exalted has elemental poles, one stable earth pole in the center of the world, endless water to the west, wind to the north, fire to the south and forests to the east. Each "pole" has a different racial makeup. Most of the people are based off historical cultures and peoples but they mix a few oddities such as having hair and eye colors on Humans never seen in nature. Anime inspired and all that.


So basically I'm not sure how I want to handle race. I plan to have three maybe four major continents and a bunch of island chains. Should Humans from the different lands look substantially different from other Humans? Should Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, etc look substantially different from their own kind on different land masses. Would there be a non-hand wave justification for their skin tone and facial recognition features resembling the nearby Humans?

I am worried that it's somewhat racist or at least hack and uncreative to make everyone one race. It's may also be equally to shoehorn in different races out of obligation with little depth: "Celtic only Black." Making appearance and culture clearly based off of a real world culture is also a mixed bag. Should Human ethnicity and race be a driver of story conflicts? I mean there are already going to be racial tensions between Goblins, Orcs, Elves, Human, etc, do they need to be racial differences within species as well? I do plan to have specific internal divisions aplenty amongst Elves, Kobolds, and Dwarves amongst others but they are based on lifestyle, religion, and competition, not ethnic nationalism.

 

[LawGnome]

I think a lot of it depends on how big a game world you are planning on making.

If you are planning on making an entire planet, then a great resource is this map: http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/70907150095/map-of-the-world-by-natural-skin-color.

As that map shows, skin color is based primarily on how close you are to the equator. Presuming that your fantasy world is roughly based on ours (a ball of rock spinning as it orbits a star), then you should have darker skinned people of all varieties near the equator, with the skin tone lightening as you travel away from the equator.

If you are planning on making a smaller game world (those couple of continents you described are just a small part of a much larger world), then what you should do is figure out the rough location on the planet your game world will take place, and go from there. If you decide to make it a Europe analog, then you will have more white people, with communities of different races here and there.




Regarding fantasy races and their location, something you need to decide is what influences you want to draw upon, since obviously elves and orcs don't actually exist or have a culture. Once you pick the influence, it is easier to place them on their appropriate landmass.

One of the most pervasive stereotypes for fantasy creatures is the dwarf. If you see a fantasy dwarf in pretty much ANY work, they will have the following traits: beard, lives underground, has a Scottish accent. Note the last one. Every person I have ever played with that played a dwarf took on that accent. When playing a human, they spoke normal English. When playing a halfling, elf, or gnome, they spoke normal English. Playing an orc....well, they spoke like an idiot, because obviously Int was the dump stat. They play a dwarf? Scottish. Every time.

You do not have to make racial tensions between humans of different skin tones if you don't want to. One of the big drivers of racial tension is a feeling of "us vs. them". In normal society, that occurs due to skin color (and culture, but just talking about skin color now). Those people over there are different from us. They are not part of our group. Fear the outsider. Etc. We only have other humans as sentient, speaking beings, so we define each group as a different race.

In a fantasy world, you now have a whole bunch of different peoples to be racist against. When it is a choice between fearing the black or latino guy, or fearing the far more different gnome or goblin, I like to think that the fantasy humans will band together in a mutual hatred of those that aren't human. Elves are less feared because they look similar to humans. Halflings look like human children, so they are distrusted due to the dissonance, but not hated. Goblins look nothing like humans, and thus are vilified by the humans. Extrapolate as necessary for reactions between different groups.




Finally, in regard to the different races on different landmasses: it depends. Are you planning on having some of each race being native to each continent, or are you thinking more of having each continent be the native home of 1 or 2 races each?

If each land has its own native form of each fantasy race, then you are going to have physical differences between individual races from each continent. Chinese look different from Nigerians look different from French look different from Iraqi. Each of these groups is a major part of a landmass away from each other, but it is very easy to tell from a distance what general area their ancestors came from.

If each land mass is home to 1 or 2 races, then there will be less variation. This land has humans and dwarfs. This land has elves and orcs. If humans are travelling to elfland, people will be able to say "that's a human, he must be from human land".

Actually, come to think of it... that isn't a bad idea. Each race has a common ancestor with each other (or in this case, the deity had a common thought when creating each race). Much like how humans in the real world are all the same with some genetic variations (as evidenced by the fact that there is no genetic barrier to reproduction between members of different races), each fantasy race is just that region's version of the common sentient life form. So, just like we can see a guy and say "he's Chinese, I bet he came from Asia", fantasy people can say "he's a human, bet he came from Humandia (or whatever you want to name the human homeland).

 

[Scalenex]

I think a lot of it depends on how big a game world you are planning on making.

If you are planning on making an entire planet, then a great resource is this map: http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/70907150095/map-of-the-world-by-natural-skin-color.

As that map shows, skin color is based primarily on how close you are to the equator. Presuming that your fantasy world is roughly based on ours (a ball of rock spinning as it orbits a star), then you should have darker skinned people of all varieties near the equator, with the skin tone lightening as you travel away from the equator.

It's actually a cylinder not a sphere. The tops and bottoms of the can literally spin off into a realm of nothingness called the Void (the primordial hunger left by the dead evil god). The equator is the warmest place not because of the tilt of the sun, but because the poles that serve as gates to the Void are literally trying to suck the world's heat away. Fluctuations in the Void barrier create the seasons but that's neither here nor there. Light intensity is the same wherever you are though, so would that cause skin-tone variations?

If you are planning on making a smaller game world (those couple of continents you described are just a small part of a much larger world), then what you should do is figure out the rough location on the planet your game world will take place, and go from there. If you decide to make it a Europe analog, then you will have more white people, with communities of different races here and there.

Planning on the whole world, but I am thinking of making the surface area about half of what Earth is.



Regarding fantasy races and their location, something you need to decide is what influences you want to draw upon, since obviously elves and orcs don't actually exist or have a culture. Once you pick the influence, it is easier to place them on their appropriate landmass.

One of the most pervasive stereotypes for fantasy creatures is the dwarf. If you see a fantasy dwarf in pretty much ANY work, they will have the following traits: beard, lives underground, has a Scottish accent. Note the last one. Every person I have ever played with that played a dwarf took on that accent. When playing a human, they spoke normal English. When playing a halfling, elf, or gnome, they spoke normal English. Playing an orc....well, they spoke like an idiot, because obviously Int was the dump stat. They play a dwarf? Scottish. Every time.

I know right? I didn't even think about it until I read the article on TV tropes. I mean every other fantasy race has a lot of variation, but all Dwarves are the same. I plan to have three Dwarven nations that vary a bit but they all came from the same origin, so they don't vary too much.

You do not have to make racial tensions between humans of different skin tones if you don't want to. One of the big drivers of racial tension is a feeling of "us vs. them". In normal society, that occurs due to skin color (and culture, but just talking about skin color now). Those people over there are different from us. They are not part of our group. Fear the outsider. Etc. We only have other humans as sentient, speaking beings, so we define each group as a different race.

In a fantasy world, you now have a whole bunch of different peoples to be racist against. When it is a choice between fearing the black or latino guy, or fearing the far more different gnome or goblin, I like to think that the fantasy humans will band together in a mutual hatred of those that aren't human. Elves are less feared because they look similar to humans. Halflings look like human children, so they are distrusted due to the dissonance, but not hated. Goblins look nothing like humans, and thus are vilified by the humans. Extrapolate as necessary for reactions between different groups.

Valid point, I'm sure the introduction of aliens on other planets would create more inter-racial solidarity on Earth, but they wouldn't necessarily eliminate it. Some Humans can still be prejudiced dicks. I plan to make the three Elven nations look down on Humans and look down on the other Elves for being Elves wrong. I'm sure Humans can do the same but inter-species tensions would trump inter-race tensions most of the time. Goblins, Kobolds and the like are not treated well by Humans and demi-Humans a s rule.

Finally, in regard to the different races on different landmasses: it depends. Are you planning on having some of each race being native to each continent, or are you thinking more of having each continent be the native home of 1 or 2 races each?

I figure Elves and Humans emerged from three or four simultaneous genesis points around the world. Though after the near-apocalypse called the Second Unmaking, the Elves endured, they are now only found in three major clusters, suspiciously similar to the WHF cultural division of Elves. The other races all started in a single place and spread out from there, so they aren't evenly distributed except for the few surviving races from the Age of Dragons like Kobolds, Dragons and Beholders. They are found almost everywhere because there races have been around for far longer than Elves and Humans and the world used to be Pangea-like before the First Unmaking.

If each land has its own native form of each fantasy race, then you are going to have physical differences between individual races from each continent. Chinese look different from Nigerians look different from French look different from Iraqi. Each of these groups is a major part of a landmass away from each other, but it is very easy to tell from a distance what general area their ancestors came from.

That's logical. I'm concerned that given that Gnomes had one Genesis point and Humans had four or more that it would be odd if Humans were a full rainbow but all Gnomes looked like a fifth of the Humans. Especially since my Gnomes were charged (by their benevolent and somewhat naive goddess) with uniting everyone in the world. I guess they could have a skin tone that matches nobody. Elves are stickier. They had multiple genesis points like the Humans but the modern elf nations are descended from refugees from several destroyed Elven lands. I don't know what they'd look like.

If each land mass is home to 1 or 2 races, then there will be less variation. This land has humans and dwarfs. This land has elves and orcs. If humans are travelling to elfland, people will be able to say "that's a human, he must be from human land".

Actually, come to think of it... that isn't a bad idea. Each race has a common ancestor with each other (or in this case, the deity had a common thought when creating each race). Much like how humans in the real world are all the same with some genetic variations (as evidenced by the fact that there is no genetic barrier to reproduction between members of different races), each fantasy race is just that region's version of the common sentient life form. So, just like we can see a guy and say "he's Chinese, I bet he came from Asia", fantasy people can say "he's a human, bet he came from Humandia (or whatever you want to name the human homeland).

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

My D&D world was sort of different it was a HUGE world

JUPITER= 38,163,834,811.575 MILES SQUARED
PARRIN= 460,800,000,000 MILES SQUARED
OUR SUN= 3,803,328,561,202.577 MILES SQUARED

*Making the map was a nightmare

However due to it's largest moon crashing into the planet it's Axial Tilt was at a roughly 35 degree angle, so summer would come to the southern hemisphere, and the northern hemisphere was stuck in constant night, the equator was in a dark twilight etc.

Near the start of the campaign a vampire gestalt Wizard||Cleric who had gained control of herself and was feeding off of the blood of summoned creatures used an unbelievable amount of magic drawn from a crystal with an Archdemon trapped within, almost all the magic in the world to set the world into a better axial tilt, but the main reason for this was to deprive the Archdemon of power, but the vampire Aecura predated the moon hitting the plantet (Which was known as 'The Sundering')

I'll tell more if you want but it's a very loooooong story.

 

[spawning of Bob]

I used to have an instinctual understanding of stereotypes prior to Scalenex directing me to tvtropes.org

Now I know everything.

For the record, I wrote Scots dwarfs before I knew it was a stereotype. Welsh will also do, according to TT.

Bob's theory of stereotypes, also known as the "Hooker with a Heart of Gold" theory. Actual source: Mad Magazine sometime in the 80s.

Fun Fact: Work Colleague of Bob actually looks like Alfred E. Neumann. And a dwarf. At the same time. (It's the Beard)

Anyway, Mad explained that stereotypes are used as characterization shortcuts to save pages of actual character development by delivering "relate-able" characters. Like dumb henchmen, absent minded geniuses, witty sidekicks and, apparently, lizardmen who die partway through the Third Act.

Mad went on to "avert" the stereotype trope by a series of single frame comics which jarred the pop subconscious of the reader (? looker) by depicting, for example, a hooker WITHOUT a heart of gold. (which is the only one I can remember)

Long story short. Scots are grumpy, gruff, tight and stubborn (ish, sometimes). Your dwarf problem is not that they are Scots. It is that they are grumpy, gruff, tight and stubborn. Every genius screen writer (including, ahem, moi) saved the ignorant reader pages of boring exposition by making the bow legged little runt say, "Aye" and "Dinnae ye ken?" a lot.

Sad fact: My personal most hated lazy stereotype is employing a black comedian (Ahmed Best - presumably NOT his slave name) doing his best slave (Yes Massa, No Massa) for Jar Jarr Binks. Why? Because the character was rustic, cheerful, naive and lazy. I don't rely on Mad Magazine for everything. This tripe is from the 19th century (according to Wikipedia).

Sad fact 2: I know someone who hated Chewbacca for much the same reasons. This is not fair. Chewbacca was far cooler (And effective, intelligent, articulate and possibly flammable).

Controversial Opinion: Bob and Wife of Bob worked for 2 years in the Middle East (KSA). A friend (UK expat) said to me early, "This place will teach you racism."

I was taken aback of course. Then over time I inderstood his definition. In that place there were many, many national and ethnic groups who tended to flock together (groups also overlapped in a healthy way, socially, for sport or for business).

What he meant was peoples ARE different. In work ethic (my Filipino friends almost ALL had side businesses, almost all were supporting family through senior schooling and university - they sought opportunity for family). My Indian friends had similar objectives but with much fewer opportunities, and on soul destroying contracts. They didn't work extremely hard, as a rule, because they had to endure long years of long hours and have no access to any kind of health care) As for sense of humour. I'm Australustrian. For the only time in my life I felt close kinship with New Zealustrians. Belgians were a humour mystery. Locals were 14 year old boys (easy to amuse).

If I needed to navigate an interaction with most folk I started with a small advantage in being able to guess who would likely need me to get emotional to get them off their asses and do their job, who I needed ingratiate myself to (eg. if their first name was "Prince" and their last name was Al Saud), who needed constant supervision and direction and who was likely to just do what they said they would.

Summing up section A:

If you have lived long in a diverse community, you have a feel for GENERAL features of your fellow humans.

Is this prejudice? Yes.

Is this discrimination? Only if you deny an opportunity (work, friendship, marriage) to an individual on the basis of this.

Can I interact identically with all people of all nationalities and education levels? Nope. I am awkward with my brother in law (Melanesian). I "Ockerize" my interactions with older and less educated clients. I tiptoe around the many expatriot staff I work with until I know them VERY well.

Except for Kiwis. I am instantly cruel to them because I know they can take it and reciprocate. (Antipodean Kinship Rules)

And the English. We mock them automatically. It's all they deserve. *

And the Irish. There are enough economic refugees here to justify that. I blame the potatoes.

But, I would not even joke about joking with an Australian of Aboriginal descent, even though one of them is among my closest work colleagues and mentors.

Have I failed to learn from decades of life in the world? Nup.

Does that make me racist? You judge.

Controversial Opinion #2: Girls and Boys are different.

Stream of Consciousness continues in part B:

Part B:

How does the author diversify his humans / humanlike peoples?

i) Using conventional stereotypes?

ii) Using the author's own inherent "racism"?

If if you choose i), don't do it because you are lazy. Do it for a reason, even if it is because you are lazy. Just be conscious of it.

Option ii) is fraught with problems, but particularly "universal acceptance", because even a brother knows "Brothers never make it out of situations like this! Not ever!" Just ask Preacher (LL Cool J) in "Deep Blue Sea" (he did, and so did some token white dude).

Part C:

The "Malazan Book of the Fallen" (Stephen Erikson) notes about twice in 10 very large novels that one of the main characters (and they are legion), Quick Ben (Ben Adaephon Delat), was dark. The Empress Laseen was blue (Napan). The characters who interacted most with these two were professional soldiers, and did not give a damn. They had rivalries and unreliabilities based on individual traits. Race of origin was irrelevant in the Malazan Empire. There were about 4 other major species, some living some dead, many other races of men, and too many gods to keep track of. The fact you were blue, or half Tarthenal (like Ublala Pung - who had very impressive, erm, equipment) mattered far less than the size of your, erm, equipment.

Transpose to Tolkien.

That's the Tolkien norm and a few people have joked about the Lord of Rings movies lacking diversity.

So the movie with extras cast from New Zealand had white Anglo-Saxon dudes cast as goodies and the Maori All Black Rugby Union Team cast as the Uruk Hai? Ridiculous!

Just like casting a Maori as the Archetypal Bounty Hunter, Jango Fett, in Episode II just because he sounded "exotic". Not round here that isn't exotic, Bro! (which was written by an Australian, but is 100% accurate (for Auckland))

Back to the books. Gondorians / Numenoreans were racially distinct from Rohan. The Baddies had Wain-riders (??), Wild Men, (Black) Haradrim, (Arabic) Men of Rhun. Equipment (even in the movies) matched the fluff geograpphy (bamboo and light clothing, Oliphaunts vs full face covering, olive skin)



Back to WHFB.

Empire = Germanic / Dutch, Bretonnian = Norman (AKA 2 generations post Viking colonization = Germanic anyway).

"I"Tileans and Estaleans / Hispanians explain themselves. Araby... let me think. Grand Cathay, Nippon, Hmm. The Ungol=Kazakh/Mongols and the Kislevite Gospodins = Slavs are all stereotypes too. The cool part is that they have been all portrayed at their historical height more or less simultaneously.

On the Chaos side, we have the Norscans (Umm....), Kurgans (probably Vandals or Huns) and the Hung (? Mongols - although I haven't read anything about them) plus minor tribes of Fluff convenience)

Fun Fact: The Mongols were still raiding Western Europe when Captain Cook was mapping the best bits of Australia prior to European "Settlement" (If dumping unwanted prisoners followed by near starvation can be considered settlement).



Back to YOU (whoever raised the topic. Probably starts with an "S")

Part D and probable conclusion:

If you aren't planning to draw criticism, or even silent distaste.....

Make everyone of the same race of as many colours / morphologies as you like for historical / geographical reasons, but if they are opposed / have different values, do it because they follow different (made up) gods.

If you don't, and then you become famous, PhD students will do their theses about what a bastard you are, despite never having met you.

I know that's how I feel.




Meanwhile... you forumnites have put me at least a full day behind posting a low-brow comic based on sexual innuendo because you have come up with another thought provoking topic.

You are so insensitive.






* Warm Beer **






** Bastards

 

[spawning of Bob]

I'll tell more if you want but it's a very loooooong story.

All that without applying any of the normal conventions of English spelling and pronunciation?

I'll pass.....

 

[Scalenex]

I'll tell more if you want but it's a very loooooong story.

If you want you can make a separate thread if you want to tell your story. For the purpose of this thread I'm just interesting in how you put races and ethnic groups in your massive world.

 

[Scalenex]

I used to have an instinctual understanding of stereotypes prior to Scalenex directing me to tvtropes.org

Now I know everything.

For the record, I wrote Scots dwarfs before I knew it was a stereotype. Welsh will also do, according to TT.

That's just the point, EVERYONE makes them Scots without realizing why. Note Tolkien's own words show that was not his intent. He drew unflattering comparisons between his Dwarves and the Jewish people.

Bob's theory of stereotypes, also known as the "Hooker with a Heart of Gold" theory. Actual source: Mad Magazine sometime in the 80s.

Anyway, Mad explained that stereotypes are used as characterization shortcuts to save pages of actual character development by delivering "relate-able" characters. Like dumb henchmen, absent minded geniuses, witty sidekicks and, apparently, lizardmen who die partway through the Third Act.

Long story short. Scots are grumpy, gruff, tight and stubborn (ish, sometimes). Your dwarf problem is not that they are Scots. It is that they are grumpy, gruff, tight and stubborn. Every genius screen writer (including, ahem, moi) saved the ignorant reader pages of boring exposition by making the bow legged little runt say, "Aye" and "Dinnae ye ken?" a lot.

You cut to the heart of the issue of stereotypes very succinctly Bob. Lizardmen dying in the third act is not a stereotype. That's just me. I'm only covered a small fraction of my checklist

Summing up section A:

If you have lived long in a diverse community, you have a feel for GENERAL features of your fellow humans.

Is this prejudice? Yes.

Is this discrimination? Only if you deny an opportunity (work, friendship, marriage) to an individual on the basis of this.

Wisely said. Not what I was asking about though. I can't marry or befriend a fictional character. I only work with them in the sense of setting them up with horrific fates.

Part B:

How does the author diversify his humans / humanlike peoples?

i) Using conventional stereotypes?

ii) Using the author's own inherent "racism"?

If if you choose i), don't do it because you are lazy. Do it for a reason, even if it is because you are lazy. Just be conscious of it.

Option ii) is fraught with problems, but particularly "universal acceptance", because even a brother knows "Brothers never make it out of situations like this! Not ever!" Just ask Preacher (LL Cool J) in "Deep Blue Sea" (he did, and so did some token white dude).

This is what I wanted. Lazy is an acceptable. Racist is not.

Back to YOU (whoever raised the topic. Probably starts with an "S")

Part D and probable conclusion:

If you aren't planning to draw criticism, or even silent distaste.....

Make everyone of the same race of as many colours / morphologies as you like for historical / geographical reasons, but if they are opposed / have different values, do it because they follow different (made up) gods.

If you don't, and then you become famous, PhD students will do their theses about what a bastard you are, despite never having met you.

I know that's how I feel.

I doubt I'll become famous but this is good advice.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Lizardmen dying in the third act is not a stereotype.

Not yet, but you are a single work of genius away from making it so.

eg. Thanks to The Princess Bride, I can cough out a vengeful Estalian Swordmaster or a Yiddish Wizard who will garner instant recognition. Even R.O.U.S.s are to be found here and now they are popping up everywhere!

He drew unflattering comparisons between his Dwarves and the Jewish people.

Which was recycling Shakespearian-age pop-prejudice. Darn J.R.R. - never an original thought!

If you don't, and then you become famous, PhD students will do their theses about what a bastard you are, despite never having met you.

I know that's how I feel.

I doubt I'll become famous but this is good advice.

I'm not a PhD student and I haven't met you, but if you want me to tell everyone, but if you want me to tell everyone what a bastard you are, I'm happy to oblige!

"He killed K'enny! And Kaitar, and Zat-kai and What'shisname*! You Bastard!"

In the meantime, I know you pump a lot of depth into your worlds and we only get to scratch the surface. I know that if there are racial / ethnic differences apparent, they are in your stuff for thoughtful reasons.

Also..."racism" is a powerful motivator for characters - you would be a nut (more of a nut) not to employ it to drive a plot for correctness reasons. You can still end up smelling like roses if the racist character has a plot arc which sees him / her / it renounce their view, or if you heroically kill the discriminated-against sometime in the third act.

See which one of those options you prefer.




* "What'shisname" - is this appropriate use of an apostrophe in a fantasy name?

 

[Scalenex]

I think I'll make humans and Elves springing from different continents have different cosmetic traits. Though the Humans will be more diverse than the Elves because there are more continents in the Age of Man than the Age of Elves (because the Elves split a continent in two while fighting a ravaging demons).

Now I need to draw the map.