8th Ed. Escalation league - List needs saving

[VampTeddy]

Hello everyone.

I made a list a while ago at a 500 step increase escalation league starting at 500 points, then i met some WoC and i ealized that i can't use CoC as a stable starting unit without a solid infantry block.


My list went:

Heroes

Scar Vet - Enchanted shield, luckstone, sword of striking, cold one.


Core

10 skink skirmishers w/ jav and shields

10 skink skirmishers w/ jav and shields


Special.

CoC w/spears x 6 w/ FC


It came really short when the CoC charged some frenxied WoC and my dreadful armor saves didn't do good for them either.

Now i can't change the 500 points list, but at 1000 points i'm allowed to change 25% of the list, and i'd like to experiment, and change a little bit on the CoC.


How about:

Heroes:

Scar vet on Cold one - Sword of Striking, luckstone, Enchanted shield.

Skink priest w/ beasts - power stone


Core

Skink Skirmishers x 10

Skink cohort x 30 w/ fc and poison


Special

CoC x 5 w/ FC and spears

Bastiladon w / solar engine

Ripperdactyls x 3 w/ champ



Now while that list is still tentative it at least has a Tarpit for enemies to be stuck in whole the COC or Rippers flank - I saved off one unit of skirmishers to afford the priest since wyssan's is something i deem a must have on the skink horde.

I really want to find points for a power stone to shock wyssan it since i'm assuming dispel priority for my opponent will be on wyssan's.

 

[VampTeddy]

i would really like some feedback on whether this could work

 

[Madrck]

If WoC are your concern skinks are not the answer. Warriors will hit and wound almost everything they roll against skinks. You will get poison and you might get another wound on your 5's. They then get 4+ AS.
Against Saurus hand weapon/shield, WoC still hit you on 3's but only wound on 4's, then you get 5+AS/6++ parry.
Hitting back you hit on 4's(4ish more attacks then skinks, saurus have 2 attacks, so depends on width of unit, but should be 5/6 wide as a block) wound on 4's and they only get a 5+AS.
Even if you run the skinks as a horde, march up shoot them 30 times (my mathhammer is bad so somebody else can give you exact numbers) 5 poison, they save 2.5. They charge you, Stand and shoot, another 2.5wounds. Say they start with 20 warriors. down to 15 in combat. They hit you doing atleast 10-12 wounds, you'll do another 2 wounds, they win combat by 8, you hold on double 1's.
If you run the skinks as a deep block, you'll basically do no wounds shooting, maybe 1-2. But you should still be steadfast, so holding on 5coldblooded. If your scar-vet is close 12"(guessing he's your general) then you'll hold on his Ld8. Also if the skinks somehow manage to hold and you get the flank charges they can continue to waste skinks for combat res.

Saurus won't do as many wounds but they'll lose combat by 2-3 Less if you get the charge and you should have 1 more rank unless they roll like a boss. you hold on 5 or better cold blooded. so atleast 52% chance of locking the unit up letting you get the flank charge to change the combat.

 

[VampTeddy]

I was just using chaos as an example, tbh my primary opponents are gonna be H elves, and W elves, mostly i just want to try out the skinks instead of saurus.

But some of your math is off (as poison can't be armor saved), but i quite agree that WoC probably ain't the thing the skinks will do good against, and you're definetly right saurus will hold up more against WoC, but can Skinks, in a horde, in numbers of only 30 do anything? or will i need larger numbers? or just all out change?.

The problem is if i change i can't go over to skinks later, but then again, maybe the attempt is a dead story from the get go.

For 30 Skinks i could get 18 Saurus with HW/ shield (which i pref to spears), will these do a lot better? I know they'd do better, but is it by a big enough margin to not run skinks for the fun of it?


My opponents as far as i know is:
A bret (who might not show)
W elves
H Elves
Beastmen
And another unknown.
Then there's some armies for lending, who among others are the Chaos i was against last (and doesn't count in the tourney)


I really appreciate the feedback, sorry that i've been less than precise.

 

[VampTeddy]

I was just using chaos as an example, tbh my primary opponents are gonna be H elves, and W elves, mostly i just want to try out the skinks instead of saurus.

But some of your math is off (as you mentioned, as poison can't be armor saved), but i quite agree that WoC probably ain't the thing the skinks will do good against, and you're definetly right saurus will hold up more against WoC, but can Skinks, in a horde, in numbers of only 30 do anything? or will i need larger numbers? or just all out change?.

The problem is if i change i can't go over to skinks later, but then again, maybe the attempt is a dead story from the get go.

For 30 Skinks i could get 18 Saurus with HW/ shield (which i pref to spears), will these do a lot better? I know they'd do better, but is it by a big enough margin to not run skinks for the fun of it?


My opponents as far as i know is:
A bret (who might not show)
W elves
H Elves
Beastmen
And another unknown.
Then there's some armies for lending, who among others are the Chaos i was against last (and doesn't count in the tourney)


I really appreciate the feedback, sorry that i've been less than precise.

 

[Madrck]

It certainly can be armour and ward saved. page 73 of the BRB. Lustrian Jav profile is str as user, so no modifiers normally. Wssyans will make them str4 which is -1AS, but it's best not to rely on spells.
If prob want atleast 25 saurus before you go spears, losing the parry save adds up.
As to vsing the other armies, both elves are normally fairly shooty, skinks get wounded on 4's 6+AS, saurus 5's, 4+AS.
never faced brets or beastman or seen any of their stats so I can't help you there.
I used to think more of skinks then saurus, but then I watched them fight a few times because a mate kept convincing me to give them a go (I've only been playing for a few months now, but my reg opp has stopped going easy on me after a few solid victories) and I would never take an army without a saurus block now(not good enough for skink cloud, never know when to flee)
Never be sorry mate, everybody I've seen and spoken to in Lustria are top blocks that just want to see the children of the old ones shine some more comedically then others (bob!, classic reading)
and fyi WoC are busted pieces of .......

 

[VampTeddy]

It certainly can be armour and ward saved. page 73 of the BRB. Lustrian Jav profile is str as user, so no modifiers normally. Wssyans will make them str4 which is -1AS, but it's best not to rely on spells.
If prob want atleast 25 saurus before you go spears, losing the parry save adds up.
As to vsing the other armies, both elves are normally fairly shooty, skinks get wounded on 4's 6+AS, saurus 5's, 4+AS.
never faced brets or beastman or seen any of their stats so I can't help you there.
I used to think more of skinks then saurus, but then I watched them fight a few times because a mate kept convincing me to give them a go (I've only been playing for a few months now, but my reg opp has stopped going easy on me after a few solid victories) and I would never take an army without a saurus block now(not good enough for skink cloud, never know when to flee)
Never be sorry mate, everybody I've seen and spoken to in Lustria are top blocks that just want to see the children of the old ones shine some more comedically then others (bob!, classic reading)
and fyi WoC are busted pieces of .......

i think i just got the the "wounds automatically part" and forgot about the rest in blissful joy

TY for the headsup, a lot of opponents (well, not really a lot, but one or 2), should be happy about that ^^

i'll go with Saurus.

TY for the tips ^^

 

[Qupakoco]

Hey Teddy, I'll add my thoughts too.

On your first list:

Heroes

Scar Vet - Enchanted shield, luckstone, sword of striking, cold one.


Core

10 skink skirmishers w/ jav and shields

10 skink skirmishers w/ jav and shields


Special.

CoC w/spears x 6 w/ FC

You have a very fast list right here. You need to use that speed to your advantage. A block of Cold One Cavalry ought to be able to run up the flank of an infantry based Warrior army without breaking a sweat. Skinks are fast too and should have no problem keeping pace. The key here would be to set yourself up for a flank charge on his big block. This would minimize the attacks sent back to you (no supporting attack) and give you a bonus for the charge+flank. That Scar-Vet should add a nice bit of Combat Resolution to the combat as well.

Fast lists like this can easily pick their own fights against infantry. Especially in a small game where the options are limited.

On your second list:

Heroes:

Scar vet on Cold one - Sword of Striking, luckstone, Enchanted shield.

Skink priest w/ beasts - power stone


Core

Skink Skirmishers x 10

Skink cohort x 30 w/ fc and poison


Special

CoC x 5 w/ FC and spears

Bastiladon w / solar engine

Ripperdactyls x 3 w/ champ

I agree, drop those 30 Skinks for some Saurus. Lizardmen don't really have a good tarpit unit since most of our stuff is so spendy. But if you want infantry, Saurus are the way to go. Drop the Champ on the Rippers. Drop the Power Stone on the Priest. Put the rest into your Saurus unit.

In your magic phase you should split the dice between Wyssan's and the Beam of Chotec. You really only need 3 or 4 dice to ensure you can get Wyssan's off, so put anything else into your laser cannon. It can't miscast

This would be a good pincer type army. Keep the Saurus and Basti in the middle and run the Rippers and Cavalry around the sides.

Alternatively do the denied flank deployment and use the Basti to anchor your weak flank. That would probably work best. Rippers are fast enough to cause immediate threats and your Cavalry is fast enough to get to where they need to be in a turn or two. Use the Skinks to stall the opponent advance or take care of the odd monster/flanking unit.



So yeah, both lists look good! You have to lose a few games here and there, so don't get bummed out if you can't seem to pull a win so early in your Warhammer career. Especially against Warriors of Chaos.

 

[Dreadgrass]

Just a point in favour of the poison-skink horde, I've been using them with a fair degree of success in my last few games. They do need to be in a unit of 40-50 though to make up for casualties.

Unit of 40 poison skinks with standard and Musician VS WoC standard infantry block (18 with halberds, standard, musician, and Mark of Nurgle)

Before Combat
skinks move to within 12" and shoot - 20 shots - 6.666 hits (1/2 poison) - 4.444wounds - 2.222 dead Warriors
Warriors charge (assume success) - 20 shots - 6.666 hits (1/2 poison) - 4.444wounds - 2.222 dead warriors

Round 1 - 40 skinks VS 13.5 Warriors
Warriors strike at I5 - 18 attacks - 12 hits - 10 wounds - 8.3 dead skinks (yay parry!)
Skinks strike at I4 - 30 attacks - 5 poisoned hits/wounds (as hitting on 6's) - 2.5 dead Warriors
Warriors win, skinks are steadfast (assume successful LD test)

Round 2 - 31.5 skinks VS 11 Warriors
Warriors strike at I5 - 17 attacks - 11.333 hits - 9.444 wounds - 7.8 dead skinks
Skinks strike at I4 - 24 attacks - 4 poisoned hits/wounds (as hitting on 6's) - 2 dead Warriors
Warriors win, skinks are steadfast (assume successful LD test)

Round 3 - 24 skinks VS 9 Warriors
Warriors strike at I5 - 15 attacks - 10 hits - 8.333 wounds - 7 dead skinks
Skinks strike at I4 - 17 attacks - 2.83 poisoned hits/wounds (as hitting on 6's) - 1.4 dead Warriors
Warriors win, skinks are steadfast (assume successful LD test)

Round 4 - 17 skinks VS 7.5 Warriors
Warriors strike at I5 - 14 attacks - 9.333 hits - 7.777 wounds - 6.5 dead skinks
Skinks strike at I4 - 11 attacks - 2 poisoned hits/wounds (as hitting on 6's) - 1 dead Warriors
Warriors win, skinks are no longer steadfast, assume they break at this point.

Tried to skew the averages slightly in the Warriors favour when the decimals got too crazy. So as you can see, the skinks only just lose out to the warriors after 4 rounds of combat. Leaving a badly mauled unit to be mopped up. Not too shabby against one of the toughest Infantry units in the game. This is a comparable result to a unit of 36 saurus with spears (6x6) which costs ~ 50 points more and doesn't have the speed or shooting flexibility of the skinks. Shield Saurus do the same but over 5 rounds instead of 4.

Note this is only averages and assuming no outside interference and standard fighting formations. Just some food for thought if your actually wanting to run the skinkers. I just feel with their speed and flexibility they'll support those CoC better than a slow saurus unit.

 

[VampTeddy]

On the above - i can't afford the 40 skinks even though i would like them (and i might add them in as my second big block later as i really want to try them!).

But 30 might come short when i look at your mathhammer (which i sorely missed, ty a lot!), about the Mathhammer though, is it completly unrealistic for skinks to wound anything on their own? (without poison), and won't they kill one or 2 on their stand and shoot reaction? (assuming i let them charge) or before combat? (as they shoot).

I was just wondering why you only let e wound on poison hits

Anyways, i like getting to use some saurus anyways, i have bought 2 battalions and 3 boxes of the chaps after all ^^

Although i also have some 72 skinks to use.

If i put it this way, maybe you guys will be able to come with some suggestions ideas also for future points (i'm assuming we'll continue untill about 2K-2.5K).

I have:

88 Saurus (as far as my math goes).
72 Skinks.
8 Kroxigors (once chapterhouses sculpts come home anyways).
5 raxordons.
2 Sallies.
3 Priests.
3 Saurus heroes on foot.
2 Skinks heroes on foot.
2 boxes of Terra's (old).
2 Boxes of new terra's
2 Boxes of Bastiladons (one is assembled and soon to be painted as a beam).
2 Boxes of new carno / troglodon's
1 old carnosaur (kroq'gar)
1 box of slann (want to try the carno first around 2K)
15 Chameleon skinks.
3 Stegadons
16 CoC.
2 Mounted Cold one Rider heroes.
1 Sar vet with BSB - on foot

And a random amount of extra models i'll receive from a friend soon, including an old stegadon and an old slann.

Nearly everything is unassembled and unpainted, and i aim to paint everything when i have to use it
also i'd like to test as much as possible ^^

ermm... but for 1000 points i'm glad it sounds solid with the saurus. Without the powerstone and Brave i'll have enough points to either fully kit my vet (prolly with a great weapon and armor of destiny) or add 2 bodies to the saurus with some leftover for a 20 man unit.

What would do well there?, or should i go about a full revamp?

Remember that i can only Exclude 125 worth of points off the original list.

 

[VampTeddy]

Denied flank i can't find in tactics, i remember reading it once, but that's some time back, how do i do this?

I know it's a Deployment tactic but that's about it.

 

[Qupakoco]

I don't think there is a tactica written up for it on L-O, but there is a Wikipedia article about it. The basics is to put your heavy hitters on one flank and put your rank and file on the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_order

There's also this fun little graphic showing the ideal outcome. Of course nothing is ideal in a game of Warhammer, but it's still fun to look at. In this case you'd be putting your Cavalry and Rippers on the left side and your Saurus and Laserdon on the right.

 

[VampTeddy]

I don't think there is a tactica written up for it on L-O, but there is a Wikipedia article about it. The basics is to put your heavy hitters on one flank and put your rank and file on the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_order

There's also this fun little graphic showing the ideal outcome. Of course nothing is ideal in a game of Warhammer, but it's still fun to look at. In this case you'd be putting your Cavalry and Rippers on the left side and your Saurus and Laserdon on the right.

Pretty


How about :



Scar vet on Cold one - Sword of Striking, Dawnstone, Enchanted shield.

Skink priest w/ beasts


Core

Skink Skirmishers x 10

Saurus w/ Hw and shields x 20


Special

CoC x 5 w/ FC and spears

Bastiladon w / solar engine

Ripperdactyls x 3


I could go Armor of Fortune on the scar vet and hand him a GW and a luckstone - giving him a 1+ rerollable (once) AS, with a 5+ ward and strength 7 attacks instead of giving him a 1+ always rerollable AS with +1 to hit magical attacks.

It's either 999 points or 1000 points depending on his build.

With Wood Elves and HE's being the primary opponents that i know are gonna show is Sword of Striking the right choice?.


The WE player loves to go all in on ranged units, and is fond of dryads -

the HE player has a list containing 6ish silverhelms, 10 or 12 archers and a repeater bolt thrower (at 500).


I am NOT afraid of GW's from the HE player's side because while i have tried making him pick them up a gazillion times, he keeps claiming that White lions suck and Sword masters got nerfed too hard (yay!). ALso he does not possess a Phoenix (moreso yes!) - he loves magic, and i think he'll bring a lvl 4 lord, or at least 3 for a 1000 point list.


The WE player WILL bring treekin, and most likely a life mage, some dryads, and 2-3 units of archers (his last 2.5K list had 4 units of 20 archers i think).


Oh, there's a beastman player as well, last time he brought a bunch of gors, and 2 chariots, and dunno what hero.


With the tools i presented on the previous page, can i handle that? and how should i go about handling that?

My assumption is that my skinks can try to screen my primary targets / redirect treekin or the likes while i might attempt (and most likely fail) doing this Denied flank tactic.


Against the WE player my rippers will just munch his archers, hands down.

 

[Dreadgrass]

......about the Mathhammer though, is it completly unrealistic for skinks to wound anything on their own? (without poison), and won't they kill one or 2 on their stand and shoot reaction? (assuming i let them charge) or before combat? (as they shoot).

I was just wondering why you only let e wound on poison hits

The "before combat" section allows for stand and shoot and a set of normal shots (resulting in ~4.5 dead Warriors before combat, hence 13.5 Warriors at the start of round 1), though I've just realised I missed a to-hit modifier off the "stand and shoot" math, it should actually be 1.666 wounds caused by stand and shoot for a total of 3.888 kills before combat.

The reason you can't get any non-poisoned wounds in combat is that against Nurgle warriors you'll be hitting on 6's (WS2 VS WS5 is 5+ and Mark of Nurgle makes them -1 to hit). So every successful hit is also a successful wound thanks to poison. Incidentally, if you opted not to take the poison upgrade, you would divide the number of wounds caused by 3 (as you'd be wounding on a 5+) so not really viable beyond tarpit duty.

 

[VampTeddy]

......about the Mathhammer though, is it completly unrealistic for skinks to wound anything on their own? (without poison), and won't they kill one or 2 on their stand and shoot reaction? (assuming i let them charge) or before combat? (as they shoot).

I was just wondering why you only let e wound on poison hits

The "before combat" section allows for stand and shoot and a set of normal shots (resulting in ~4.5 dead Warriors before combat, hence 13.5 Warriors at the start of round 1), though I've just realised I missed a to-hit modifier off the "stand and shoot" math, it should actually be 1.666 wounds caused by stand and shoot for a total of 3.888 kills before combat.

The reason you can't get any non-poisoned wounds in combat is that against Nurgle warriors you'll be hitting on 6's (WS2 VS WS5 is 5+ and Mark of Nurgle makes them -1 to hit). So every successful hit is also a successful wound thanks to poison. Incidentally, if you opted not to take the poison upgrade, you would divide the number of wounds caused by 3 (as you'd be wounding on a 5+) so not really viable beyond tarpit duty.

Oh, my opponent did Khorne, which i assume shifts both his and my wounds into that place where i die a lot faster?