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8th Ed. Dwarf Tactica (detailed)

Is it worth taking a bus of COR with say 4 scar vets or 2 scar vets w/ oldbllod?

I fear that by taking 4 scar vets I'll be facing too many units with WS5 and S6. THe bus might kill a lot at first, but he can just direct his attacks at my scar vets and chew them up one at a time? Say there are 4 scar vets with halbards along with a minimum of 6 CORs.

I made the math earlier and I belive it would average on something like 10 wounds with full strenght (I'll check it out later). Against 35 dwarfs I would have to remove 23 (so AT LEAST two full combat phases) before he's at 12 models (2 ranks at 6 each), from here he'll lose efficientcy.

Can a scar vet bus take these guys head on and actually survive? If kitted right these guys (if attacked by 6 WS5, S6 attacks) will take an average of 0.5-0.6/7 wound from each combat phase so in theory these guys can take the beating, but is it safe to bet this much on a bus?

I suppose the good thing is that, while the CORs won't do much damage themself (7 attacks from rider, 10 attacks from mounts) they'll still proceed to do roughly 3 wounds or so each round if they're all allive. If they are hit on this means that my scar vets arent being hit on. Also he can only direct a maximum of 6 attacks against the one COR in the front which should average to 2 wounds (~1.70 wounds I believe).

I just really want to have something fast and something that screams FU when they reach CC.

- With 8 COR, a banner and BSB along with 4 scar vets they cost around 900 pts. Should he direct half his attacks against my COR and the rest against my Scar vets I'll still hit at full strenght after first round of combat, if we assume the attacks against the scar vet doesn't do above average and the same with those against the COR.

Oh and yeah I just thought of another thing - how about a champion? Killing off his rank and file models will be the primary target, however spending a champion should there be a than means that I'll be safe at least one round of combat.

With charge, banner, BSB and 1 rank + an average of 8 kills I should be able to manage a total of 12 CR and win. Against hammere this won't mean much, but if I can keep getting 6+ kills along it should at the very least have a draw in CR in the second round of combat. If we assume I can kill an average of 10 kills with full strenght I can dwindle 35 models to 15 with two full rounds of combat. After the second round of combat I'll probably either have lost enough COR or a scar vet to not be at full force, BUT he's only 2 wounds away from the same and no longer have the luxury of full rank bonus. He'll obviously still be steadfast and most likely hold his ground (against his hammer unit this is a non-issue for him really).

So... Theory tells me this *should* work, but I'm just find it a bit unstable? If he's lucky he can kill a scar vet in first roud of combat followed by chopping up a lot of COR afterwards and I losing CR to keep put?

I just want to hear some opinions. :)

So, what do you think about this, in a 2500pts game?
 
The bus is fine, but it's not really intended for smashing large infantry blocks. It's for smashing quite literally everything else.

The problem isn't that the bus won't eventually win against infantry blocks (it will), it's that it will take forever to slowly mow through them, tying up a lot of your points in that one combat and losing the advantage of their maneuverability. You might even get flanked, or be forced to watch helpless as the rest of your army crumbles. Also, some infantry - most notably Executioners, great sword chaos warriors, great sword dwarves, white lions, etc - are not the best match up for cavalry.

Against large infantry blocks, you have salamanders, equally large units of temple guard, ripperdactyls, and Fiery Convocation as good answers. Hit a large infantry block with one of those things first, and then send in the character bus.
 
Well I want to try and not be reliant on magic, but I get your point.

Hmm.. I'm not too sure then though, are the new salamanders worth it? I haven't really have succes with them so far.

I was also considering going heavy with kroxigors, but since they strike at the same time I fear they'll be wasted against large blocks. I mean, sure even if 8 of these somehow should manage to get into CC they'll hit at the same time. Their 24 attacks will be reduced to an average of 12 attacks due to low WS + 4 stomp, but they'll take an average of 6½ wound and be down to 6 models after first round of CC and next round they'll be down to 4 models and thus more and so on.. In a flank they can wreck havoc though.

My issue with dwarfs and my mindset (trying to not rely on magic) is that I'm forced to move forward. Skrox units appear to be useless in this matchup so my main blocks will move forward with a maximum speed of 8 inches. Even if I position them at the edge of the deployment zone it'll take two full turns to travel 16", on the third turn I should be able to get a succelsfull charge, but if I'm unlucky I'm in for another round of shooting. The point is that I want to be in his face ASAP without magic, and no special characters (Tetto'Eko).

I have, however, thought about getting a heaven slann and IF a comet. This will force him forward, but there is no guarantee that I'll get it off.

So I'm a bit baffled what to do vs dwarfs. Their characters outmatches ours, we have the mobility on our side, but also suffers from getting shot to s**t before CC, monsters are giant cannon magnet, if equally matched in numbers their core will beat ours.

The fastest units we have are either monsters or die in drowes (skrox).

I dunno why exactly it is so hard for me to figure out. :shifty:
 
I haven't hidden my general disdain for skrox units. I still run them sometimes just because our core choices are so limited, but I cringe every time I have to do it.

I don't recommend kroxigor units against Dwarves. Dwarves are mostly artillery and infantry with great weapons, neither of which are great matchups for kroxigor.

I've had a lot of people tell me Dwarves are a bad matchup for lizards, but that hasn't been my experience. Flying Cav, Cameleon Skinks, magic, and oldblood cowboys can take out artillery. Rippers, salamanders, magic, and large temple guard blocks can take out their infantry. Attack each of those two parts (artillery and infantry) in multiple different ways, and you should be fine.
 
I actually have a setup I feel should be competitive enough against dwarfs, but so far I've failed with it due to luck not being on my side and possibly some bad execution of the plan.

Last game I had:

Characters:

Slann w/ Lore of Heaven* and Reservoir of Eldritch Energy (1 free PD each turn), BSB.

* I rolled comet, curse of the midnight wind, harmonic convergence and chain lightning, so not bad.

Oldblood w/ Armour of Destiny, Dawnstone and halbard on CO.

Scar vet with armour of fortune, hand weapon/shield on foot in the templeguard unit.


Core:

35 saurus with sword (5 wide, 7 deep).
2 x 11 skink cohorts.
2 x skink skirmish.

Both units had javelins.


Special:

6 Rippers with frog placed on his Ranger horde w/ GW.
7 COR (bus for OB).
30 Templeguards.

Rare:

Ancient Steg

My saurus unit charged his rangers when in turn two. My rippers were set up for a flank charge in turn 3 and a skink skirmish unit had gotten around the other flank and charged that. So 2 charges and another one just waiting to happen.

Then I came the combat phase. He smashed through 11 or 12 Saurus warriors with ease. I was now no longer steadfast and only got got 3 kills through + 3 CR from charges. All in all I lost combat by enough for both units to break. Since they broke my rippers decided to do the same. Guess what? They fled off the damn table.

So now he had smashed one of my main combat blocks + my rippers (who I would love to use) fled.

I just did not anticipate to not be steadfast this fast. Especially because I had the curse of the midning wind on him. :(

As I said, I think the overall army is fine, but not executed well enough.

Next time I'm considering to dump the COR and have my OB to be a lone cowboy. Maybe even drop a unit or two of the skinks. This way I can easily put in another unit of saurus OR boost the current ones + have something else. If I would've had another 5 saurus warrior my unit would've been steadfast.
 
How did the rippers flee without getting into combat? They are frenzied, so they're immune to psychology and don't take panic tests.

Also, if you're using the ripper strategy, try using the oldblood cowboy to hold up the horde, rather than a saurus block. You'll note Saurus are not in my list of things that match up well against dwarven infantry. :(
 
RipperDerek said:
How did the rippers flee without getting into combat? They are frenzied, so they're immune to psychology and don't take panic tests.

Also, if you're using the ripper strategy, try using the oldblood cowboy to hold up the horde, rather than a saurus block. You'll note Saurus are not in my list of things that match up well against dwarven infantry. :(
Click to expand...

Gaaaaahhh.. Oh well. I completely forgot that frenzy = immune to psycology.

Anyway my oldblod was positioned in the other end of and had to do some traveling. That was my own mistake. However he did charge them later on. All 7 COR died after first round of combat lol. My lord was killed in 3 rounds of combat. Some bad luck on my part I suppose.
 
Just send the lord himself. Great weapons are not a good matchup for cavalry.

3 rounds of combat is plenty with the rippers in the flank.
 
Which is also why I'm considering to not use them the next time. I'm just not sure exactly what to do with the points though. More ancient stegs? Anti warmachine? Hmm.. It's a sort of limited choice since both kroxigors and COR are redundant and I've already taken a unit of TGs lol. The bast will also be useless in pretty much all ways.

I could also buff up both saurus units by 5 for warriors and 6 for guards and add a beast priest. Next time I'm also considering Lore of Shadow. Think it's worth it?
 
Pinktaco said:
Well I want to try and not be reliant on magic, but I get your point.

Hmm.. I'm not too sure then though, are the new salamanders worth it? I haven't really have succes with them so far.

I was also considering going heavy with kroxigors, but since they strike at the same time I fear they'll be wasted against large blocks. I mean, sure even if 8 of these somehow should manage to get into CC they'll hit at the same time. Their 24 attacks will be reduced to an average of 12 attacks due to low WS + 4 stomp, but they'll take an average of 6½ wound and be down to 6 models after first round of CC and next round they'll be down to 4 models and thus more and so on.. In a flank they can wreck havoc though.

My issue with dwarfs and my mindset (trying to not rely on magic) is that I'm forced to move forward. Skrox units appear to be useless in this matchup so my main blocks will move forward with a maximum speed of 8 inches. Even if I position them at the edge of the deployment zone it'll take two full turns to travel 16", on the third turn I should be able to get a succelsfull charge, but if I'm unlucky I'm in for another round of shooting. The point is that I want to be in his face ASAP without magic, and no special characters (Tetto'Eko).

I have, however, thought about getting a heaven slann and IF a comet. This will force him forward, but there is no guarantee that I'll get it off.

So I'm a bit baffled what to do vs dwarfs. Their characters outmatches ours, we have the mobility on our side, but also suffers from getting shot to s**t before CC, monsters are giant cannon magnet, if equally matched in numbers their core will beat ours.

The fastest units we have are either monsters or die in drowes (skrox).

I dunno why exactly it is so hard for me to figure out. :shifty:
Click to expand...


I just played a 2500 pt tourney and had to face a Dwarven gunline with lots of artillery. Here's what I brought to the tournament:

Lords

Saurus Oldblood on Cold One
Great Weapon
Armor of Destiny
Dawnstone

Saurus OldBlood
Great Weapon
Shield
Egg of Quango
Armor of Fortune
Luckstone

Heroes

Tetto'eko
Skink Priest
Level 2 Lore of Beasts
Dispel Scroll

Core

33 Saurus w/Full Command
32 Skinks w/ Musician and Standard Bearer
Poisoned Attacks
3 Kroxigor imbedded
10 Skink Cohort w/ Standard Bearer
10 Skink Skirmishers


Special
9 Chameleon Skinks w/ Stalker
8 Cold One Riders w/ Full Command
Bastiladon


Rare
Salamander Hunting pack w/ extra handler (x3)


He placed his artillery on either side of his line, along with his anvil. In the middle he had a group of Longbeards in front of a long line of Quarrelers and Gunners.

I ran my skrox unit in line with his gunners and my main block of saurus with my general in line with his Longbeards.

I put my Chamo skinks and my COR on the extreme flanks.

Tetto'eko is great against Dwarves because of his ability to vanguard D3 units. I managed to advance my Saurus, COR, and sallies via Vanguard. Also, the re-rolled 1s in magic and the Comet call-down are both great against Dwarves. In this game I didn't get off any spells, but Tetto'eko was worth bringing for the vanguarding alone.

It took me to turn 3 before I could charge his line with my infantry. By the time I made it to his gunline I had lost about half of my saurus and maybe 25% of my skrox. Also, my Chamo skinks got obliterated turn one, and my Bastiladon also died turn 3 (though he managed to dodge/save against several cannon shots.)

The COR bus worked perfectly, and systematically swept down the line, killing warmachines, engineers, and eventually hitting the quarrelers. My Skrox unit actually managed to break the hand gunners after two rounds of combat.

My saurus slogged it out with the Longbeards for turns 3-6. My Oldblood general on foot accepted challenges from two Dwarven slayers, the BSB, and the unit champion and absolutely MURDERED them all while only taking 1 wound.



Besides the challenges which went decidedly in my favor, the combat rolls were pretty back and forth on both sides. I think the key vs. infantry is just to hold out long enough for your other units to eventually set up for a flank charge.
 
Well, that's very different from what I can expect. If he brings enough units he'll do a castle or whatever where the canons are positioned in between infantry units. In one game he had 2 hammerers, longbeard and regular warriors, all GW and his artillery in between. We also don't play with special characters.
 
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