8th Ed. Do we let ourself rule by the meta and competitive scene?

[Pinktaco]

I find this an intersting topic and likely something you could see on any WHF forum tbh.
With the introduction of the 8th edition LM army book it was quickly deemed that our army composition would still likely follow the trend of the previous book - skink cloud, cowboys and the all powerful slann, but here almost two years later I'm seeing much more, although I find people to be reluctant to let go of the old ways.

IT'S NOT THAT I THINK THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH SKINKS it's just that it gets boring to be forced into one way of playing. We've also seen very competitive players and tournament goers leave the forum and army because herp derp it wasn't competitive enough and without enough options. Maybe they are right though, some of these people undoubtly have more experience than me and I'm not one to dictate what others should do with their free time.

With that said I think there's more to our army than we give it credit for and I'll gie examples in the following:

• The tried and true skink cloud is still a very viable and good build. The most competitive? Probably in most people's eyes, but the only one? I doubt it.
• The crazy build with double carnosaurs. Maybe ZaGreekie were full of it, maybe he was a bit nuts, I don't know since his stay on the forum was rather brief, but it's there and he made it somewhat work. I even believe he won a tournament with the build? Obvious flaws are obvious, but it's there and with enough effort it can likely work more than people give it credit for.
• The new comer heavy saurus build(s) from @protector - he made the impossible seem possible. MSU saurus warriors? Teh heck?! Regardless of what you think it's still an option. As good as the skink cloud? That's hard to judge, but I think it require some thinking-outside-the-box mentality and willingness to to force yourself to try them. SW being the second best infantry unit in the game sounds like utter madness and yet Protector is firm in his beliefs. Firm enough for people to be convinced? Likely not since the old ones on the forum are a stubborn bunch old lizzies
• The Cold Bus is a viable deathstar unit that'll see various cowboys stuffed into a CoR unit (bus). JustMeDaly showed us, on youtube, how it should be done and did well with it. Our Oldblood can compete with a Vamp lord and Deamon Prince - what do you think a bus full of the fvckers can do? The rest of the list usually consisting of skinks in all forms and shapes.
• The last one is the flying circus. It's not something I'm very familiar with, but I do know people have tried it at tournaments before. Succesful? I have no idea to be honest. I think it's in the lower end of viable competitive builds, but it's there. It likely require a massive amount of practive and knowing how to use the models. That Ld9-10 BSB bubble can only be spread so far and the flying circus is both fast, have frenzy and low Ld. Perfect cocktail of complete and other craziness. I can see the potential, but it require the right set of skills. Something I lack

Besides the above fie pointers there is also another last claim: Our book is very well rounded in terms of balance. Sure we have the weirdness of the Troglodon (DAMN YOU GW!) and sure the CoRs saw a very weird nerf and buff from the last book to the current one, but overall I - and others - agree that the book is rather balanced. One have to remember that a book isn't internally well-balanced because of derp units like white lions, warlocks, monstrous cavalry etc. Our book doesn't really have that stand-out unit with the exception of maybe our cowboys. Some hate our army for that and others are happy for not having that must-have unit.
I'm somehow reminded of Mr Phat claiming once that The Empire have a ton of units to choose from in their Core section, well true they have heavy cavalry and some randoms stuff of which most people mainly use the halbards. With the new eye-opener from Protector I now deem our Core section much more worth while. I'm not a big fan of the skrox units, but fact is that they are perfectly viable - from small to big units. Saurus warriors can be used in various sizes as well and there is always the trusted skink cloud and skink cohort units.

Personally I consider skinks to be one of the best core units in the game. If what Protector have stated about our saurus warriors to be true then we suddenly have some of the best core models in the game the way I see it.
I'm certainly going to try out some more of what is less mainstream and decide for myself instead of being ruled what the meta have claimed - not that there's anything wrong with that at all. The more units I can get to work the more interesting my games will be and the more fun I'll have.

What's your opinion? Am I just spouting bullsh1t and should go back to the spawning pool I came from or do you think we as a community should allow ourself to think a bit more outside the box?

 

[Qupakoco]

Yes, I believe the meta effects our lists entirely. WHFB is a game with a winner and a loser. If you always took a list that you liked cause it looked cool or because it had a theme, but didn't win with it, I'd suspect to see you make adjustments. You hear stories about what other people did, how they fared in a game or two, copy+paste something similar to your next game, and discover that you like it! Then you come to L-O and announce your victory and the cycle repeats itself!

Don't forget the CO-Bus!! That's a good one.

 

[Pinktaco]

I'll just add that

 

[Mr Phat]

No unit is better than the meta allows it to be.

My meta is competetive ETC.

I would like to see Saurus/Carnosaur lists fair well against the DoC "Nurgle Wall" or Empire +1 with artillery list.
as in: I would really like it, because I dont see what kind of tactics would make that work against the fellas I am playing.

 

[Pinktaco]

Excuse my ignorance - because I really need to play more against DoC - but what is it that we struggle so much with against here? A single OB can hold up an indefinite of beast of nurgles - what is it that I miss? An OB will still likely do 2 wounds against then, take zero and auto-win any combat against these - it takes 250 WS6 or less at S4 to make a single wound on an OB with dawnstone . that's not accounting for any poison attack although the poison doesn't change our 1+ rerollable.
Plaguebearer have worse stats than us and should they bring a herald can we not just kill him immediately due to poor defensive items? Again I'm likely missing a point here, but considering how a nurgle herald is both more expensive and worse than a Scar Vet and the plauge guys being more expensive and again worse than our saurus warriors I feel like I'm missing something critical here.

The biggest issue I see would be 2 x skillcanons.

The emperial armour with artillery I find somewhat more tough, especially if you have carnosaurs in your build.

*EDIT* Derp forgot about the -1 To Hit Mark of Nurgle debuff on us. I still think Saurus Warriors -> Plaguebearers. We're cheaper and hit with more attacks.

 

[Agrem]

I'd also echo that ofcourse the meta affects to the lists that we (and I) build. Here we usually play under the ETC comp that is mainly because most of the tournaments here in Finland are held with that ruleset so we don't really see any point in going with different. Also I believe it does even out the game a bit when most of the filth is filed out.

However especially with ETC comp you are not even capable of building out all those competitive lists that you otherwise could. I'm mainly looking at the CO BUS which is neutered completely under the comp. I think that the same can happen with different meta/comp/restrictions.

BR
Agrem

 

[Mr Phat]

I would take plaguebearers over saurus any day.

For 2extra pts you get

- Same statline , just +1 to initiative
- magical Poison attacks
- Wardsave 5+
- Magic banner option (up to 25)

thats without heralds, which themselves aren't short of a scarvet on foot, in any way baring Cold one option.

But besides that block of utter dispair, you have to deal with

- multiple units of beasts,
- 5 dicing (ETC = max 5 dice on a spell) Gateway from his horrors
- a unit of all consuming HOVERING Plaguedrones....do NOT underestimate this unit.

now... pair these incredibly dangerous units with redirecting flyers and the occasional hurt from the "Reign of Chaos" table.

Then add the fact that the guy you are playing against is on your country's ETC team, and has been for years.

Even if you DID outplay him, there is no unit in that army your saurus block would come even CLOSE to beating.
They can contribute NOWHERE, and that is the common case around here: they can chase things skinks would chase better or lose combat.
That is the options.

An Oldblood is tough but either gets stuck and then run down or loses straight away to static ress.

 

[Pinktaco]

But it's not same stat-line it's 1 less attack with no PF, no parry and equal armour save against their 5+ ward save (if one were to pit these two against each other). The magical banner does absolutetly nothing, neither their magical attacks to help them (besides maybe +1Ld/flaming attacks). The herlad have 1 less attack, no PF, a ward that'll likely not be improved and no 1+ armour save and no S7. And they're +10pts compared to naked SV.

I'm having a hard time seeing how saurus warriors couldn't at least be equals to plagebearers.

No offence at all, but isn't the bigger issue here this: Then add the fact that the guy you are playing against is on your country's ETC team, and has been for years.?

I'm guessing what you're saying is that he's outplaying you. With no math done I'm having an extremely hard time seeing how plaguebearers can beat a proper unit of saurus warriors. If you include a herald include a scar vet as well?

Also how the hell does an Oldblood LOSE combat against monstrous infantry/cavalry? Do you singledhandedly show him into the plaugebearers away from the Slann? As I mentioned in a another thread even if you end up with Ld6 withing the BSB range you'll still have 89% chance of staying put. If you're near the slann you'd have to lose combat by 3-4 points without doing CR yourself. How on earth is that even possible?

 

[Sleboda]

My meta is competetive ETC.

My condolences.

 

[Pinktaco]

Listen Phat, I do not doubt in a second that DoC are tough as sh1t to go through, especially when you're up against a very good player. I trust you when you say this.

However, from my understanding plaguebearers are taken in units of.. 24 models? I'm guessing that considering how he need those other units for Gateway. At 5 wide with champ they're doing 2 wounds flat on saurus warriors, going 7 wide and considering their damned nurlge mark and ward we can do 2,65 wounds. Either round that up and they'll average a lose of 1 model in due to instability or figure out the average of that and add it up. At any rate we can perfom better and we can allow ourself to do so because our guys are cheaper.

Templeguards will average 3,69 wounds on plaguedrones simultaniously. They'll lose a stomp and likely lose combat in the following round. How are these all-consuming?

OB can easily hold up and win against a unit of beast of nurgles. They'll do diddley against him and at best have 1 rank which we can remove by removing a single model.

The biggest filth I'm seeing here is Gateway and if your friends strategy of winning is to 5-dice that spell well... I feel sorry for you. That's hardly being good at anything - not that I'm doubting the rest of his game - but anybody who can 6-dice to win are a bunch of d1cks in my world. Well okay maybe I shouldn't be that harsh because we all do it at times. Including me

At any rate I still haven't accounted for our own magic phase nor the rest of the army. However you seem to very much overvalue the DoC army and undervalue the one you're playing - again I'm not saying herp derp dis be easy, but I'm not seeing any "all-consuming" or wall of utter despair here. Mostly I think it's matter of him being really good.

 

[borkbork]

Where do i find the list/set up that protector uses? I think i have read it before, but i cant find it anymore.

thx

 

[Elholm]

Where do i find the list/set up that protector uses? I think i have read it before, but i cant find it anymore.

I also find that @protector has a very interesting point of view and i like saurus way more than skinks, there is just something about them ... if you look at page 5 and 6 in the "Saurus warrior.. the tactica?" in our tactics forum then you will find (at page 5) a MSU list that i my self requested and (at page 6) there is a list of how various units support our SW.. further more has me posted a list for dealing with Elves and the likes in "high elves problem" thread also on our tactics forum

 

[Irish_Lizard]

As my meta is identical to Phatmotha-Phucka's I have to agree that the viable units are limited by the meta. The meta vastly changes how good different units and armies are. The most extreme and obvious example is the South Coast GT the year the new warrior book came out. It was won by Andi Avery with O&G( a sub par book nobody rated) because he played the meta, took an anti armour list and smashed warriors all weekend. The same list in a daemon and dwarf meta will fail horribly. Similarly a monster mash will wreck infantry metas but fail hard to cannon and magic heavy armies. Hence there is no 'one list to rule them all' or even one army(unlike 7th)

 

[Mr Phat]

@Pinktaco

Again: you are assuming those units meet in a straight up fight.
The problem isn't winning or staying against Nurgle walls, its breaking a unit so you wont get combo charged the following turn.

Nurgle units go NOWHERE, so every time you charge something you more or less must assume that your unit wont do anything else for the rest of the game.

If you hesitate to charge, he will decide the matchups, and then he wins.

All he has to do is to make the units you want to charge into bad charge-options, which is fairly easy as Plague Drones cover a lot ground.

Regarding 5-dicing Gateway, no it doesn't take a lot of skill, but you would be a fool not to do it.
You cant hold a grudge against a player for doing things within his means.

 

[protector]

Sorry phone posted accidentally, I was thinking of commenting but didn't want to derail it into a saurus can crush nurgle and empire thread. If anyone has questions or challenges for saurus please post in the saurus tactica and I will respond.

my thoughts on metas is this, if you are willing and able to try things others don't then you can change your meta. I did and now other armies have to work against my meta of saurus warriors and how to counter them effectively.

 

[Pinktaco]

It's okay I believe you so how do you against this dreaded nurgle list with skinks?

 

[novatomato]

Heya chaps.
I think it is true that we influence people in a never ending cycle on how to play, but I also think it is a real shame. What should really be the emphasis is on learning how to play your particular army style. Choose your army based off of how you want to play the game with the models you like and then play a bunch of games. People may end up getting trounced, quite heavily sometimes, but if the game is being played not just to try and win but to learn and have fun you will in fact learn and have fun and get better faster than if you try to copy other people.

 

[Putzfrau]

It's okay I believe you so how do you against this dreaded nurgle list with skinks?

You never have get stuck in combat so it just avoids most of the issue. Ping with magic+poison and win or lose small. Go for the kairos with some DD.