7th Ed. Considering Lizardmen, convince me

[Calaith]

G'day all

As I mentioned in my introduction post I am currently a 40K player, however with the release of the 5th edition I have decided to give the hobby up due to abysmal new rules that unbalanced the game and made it too difficult for my two favoured armies. (Necrons and Eldar). Now I am considering (though not deffintately) looking into WHFB as an alternative hobby, and the Lizardmen caught my eye. In truth, this is not the first time I considered swapping to Fantasy, and the Lizards have interested me for a while now, but I'm still not sure. I'm also loosely considering Vampire Counts (anyone who knows me knows that I have a rabbid fascination with Vampires), but I'm not so much a fan of the undead. (despite collecting Necrons for a while)

So, the reason Lizardmen caught my eye was the same reason as all of my past armies: the models. I quite like the look of the Saurus warriors and skinks, they're very different from anything else in the Fantasy world. Not so much a fan of the Slann, but I'll get to that later. Knowing nothing about the rules, my current ideas for the type of army I'd like to field are based only on what I think looks cool and the style of play I enjoyed in 40K.
So far I think I might focus on a an army that has a very strong Saurus core with a number of ranked units, supported heavily by a large number of skinks. The plan would bassically be for the skinks run ahead to soften the enemy with blow pipes before the Saurus crash into the enemy ranks and finish them off. Cold One mounted Saurus acompanied by a mounted Oldblood would be at the centre of the force, ready to rush forward to where they're most needed to tip the tied of battle. I also quite like the look of either chameleon skinks or Terradon riders to take out enemy artillery and any other dangers that might hurt the Saurus. The force would focus more on large numbers rather than singular characters or elite units carrying the game, and would be designed to be quite mobile and capable of reaching the enemy quickly.
The above may sound like the ramblings of an idiot, but keep in mind I've never played a full game of WHFB nor do I know any rules in real detail. I am only guessing.

At a larger points level, if I decide to expand past relatively small games, I would be interested in adding perhaps a Carnosaur mounted Oldblood instead of Cold One, and expand the army with a whole with more of the same really. I might add a stegadon to really booster the strength of the Saurus core, but I'm not really interested in Kroxigor or Salamanders at this point. I also would probably prefer to use Skink priests over a Slann Mage Priest simply to keep the heroes/lords as cheap as possible, and because having such a powerful magic user supporting warrior troops just seems too similar to the "Farseer supporting Aspects" Eldar way of fighting.

Your opinions and advice on what I listed above is very welcome. I also want you guys to convince me about Fantasy in general though. What is it like to play? Similar or completely different from 40K? Obviously (as per your forum (amd legal) rules) you can't say "the rules are like this this and this", but I want to gage the hobby a bit before jumping in to buy the rulebook. As much as I can I'll be heading down to GW to take a look in the rule book and talk with the guys there, but I find the advice of gamers over forums far more reliable and useful than the Redshirts.

Thanks in advance,
Cal

 

[Sammy the Squib]

IMO nothing looks cooler on the tabletop than a lizardmen army marching to war. Giant Lizards, dinosaurs, aztec/myan themes make for an awesome army.

Also, we have two of the coolest lord choices in the game, a T-Rex or a giant frog!

The Slann is awesome to use and also open up the option for the formidable temple guard. Stegadons simply look awesome and pack a nasty punch as well.

FB is very different from 40K, but in a good way. It doesn't take long to pick up the rules and when you do you'll son see why it's such a popular game

 

[Axolotl]

Hello, I am playing both 40k and Fantasy so i thought i'd tell you my views.
first of all i like the new 5th edition 40k rules, but that is just my taste i guess.

Fantasy is much less dynamic than 40k. You mostly have static blocks of units, and the majority of killing takes place in hth combat. there are exceptions, of course. But as i see it the movement phase is the most important phase in fantasy. It is very important from which direction and in which arcs you attack your enemy units. Luring your enemy into traps is also one important aspect of the game. overall i think fantasy needs much more thinking during the game than 40k does and mostly takes longer timewise.

Your imagination of your lizard army is very fluff orientated but not quite what is played mostly. first of all you will definitely want salamanders, no matter what else you field. They are simply the best unit we have imho.
The Problem about saurus warriors is that they are very slow, and as i said before this game is mostly decided in the movement phase so their slowness really matters. many people don't field them at all, I mostly take one unit as slann guard.

Cold one riders can be a good unit but they are very pricey. the same goes for the lord on carnosaur. While he has some good close combat abilities he will die in turn 2 or thre if your opponent has some artillery. Furthermore the carnosaurus costs you an additional hero slot that could have been filled with another saurus hero or skink priest instead.

But don't be afraid of using the slann. He is different from the farseer in 40k. The slann has a very wide range of spells, and the most popular might be the damage spells. So while the farseer buffs your other units with his abilities the slann can dish out damage by himself.

And Kroxigors are also a unit you will definitely want....

My suggestion for a good start (like a 1000-1500 pts list) would be 3 salamanders, 3 kroxigors, and at least 30 skinks as mandatory. now you can add stuff according to your own taste. 5 Saurus Cavalary, 15-20 Saurus Warriors, Terradons are always good.

if you have no slann (and you won't below 2k points) one skink priest with 2 dispel scrolls or the diadem of power is a must, 2 are better. And of course a Saurus hero as your general. A nike saurus (a saurus hero on foot with an item that lets him run very fast) is also very useful and in every one of my army lists.


Of course a list with many saurus in it might also work, but i don't think you should invest in large numbers of them because eventually you will find out that there is much better stuff to buy for your points in our army book then them ^^

as for convincing you to play the lizzies,
they are a very characteristic army. You can play your lizardmen in a bunch of different styles, and quite a few of them can be really successful. No matter if you feel like a shooty skink army, a magic mayhem or a bloodthirsty close combat horde. We are cold blooded, a special rule which lets us stay calm where others flee in panic. Our heroes are much older than the eldest of the other races, and the slanns are the most powerful beeings that exist. They can move continents and alter reality. (not gamewise but in the fluff ^^). We do bloody sacrifices for our gods but we still are the good guys, the ones who defend the plan of the world like it should have been created.
I tried a few fantasy armies and i still believe lizards are one of the most fun to play with.

 

[Calaith]

Thanks for the replies guys.

For my first army I'm looking at keeping it down at 1,000 points. I may enter Conflict next year with my new army, depending on how busy I am. (Or if I decide to take up the hobby at all. )This doesn't mean that I desperately want a competative army however, but rather an army that I am going to enjoy playing with, win or lose.

After heading the wise words of veterans from this site and others, I am considering comprising the list mostly of skinks, with virtually no saurus. However the army is led by a saurus hero mounted on a cold one, with either a large retinue of riders, or two smaller units of riders. I may include Salamanders for the amount of damage they seem to dish out, but I'd love to try out the terradons. IF they could be fitted into the list, I also wouldn't mind adding Chameleon skinks, as they look quite cool.

The whole feel of the army is intended to be very stealthy almost ninja like skink attack, supported by the raw killing power of the Cold one cavalry and the Salamanders. It would be designed to be very fast and quickly able to outmanourve the enemy, wittling them away while staying just beyond the reach of danger and keeping the enemy unable to bring their entire force to bear at any one time. If terradons could be added, their role would be to rush forward and destroy enemy artillery quickly. I also would consider a skink priest to help, but only if it could be fitted in after all my other options as I want a force that is extremely aggressive and warlike.

How does this sound?

Cheers, Cal

 

[Axolotl]

Does not sound too bad. But Cold one riders are pretty expensive, points wise. a unit of 5 (minimum size) already costs about 200 points, depending on the upgrades you give them, and you will want at least a standard and a musician. and the huanchi banner is also pretty good, that would make the unit going toward 250 points. add about 200 points for Salamanders and maybe 200-300 for heroes if you take a mounted saurus and 1 or 2 skink priests... you are at about 750 points now. now you need a few core skinks, lets say 30+, that are another 200 points.

This is just a rough calculation of course, no exact point values included. But i wanted to show you that in a 1000k points list even 5 or 6 Cold one riders heavily tear down your budget. Of course they hit really hard, but one lucky cannon or bolt thrower shot might cost you quite heavy losses because as hard as cold one riders hit the easy they fall.

Of course it is your choice if you take the risk. The Cavalary might tear your enemys up but they might as likely die fast themselves. And another downside is that they are stupid, meaning if they fail their ld check at the beginning of the turn you can't control them as you wish. I would consider taking 2 3 strong kroxigor units instead. The Kroxis can also benefit from the skinks because they have a special rule that lets these units work together quite nicely. Do you already have the Army book? then you sure know what i mean =)

chameleon skinks are more like a fun-gadget for me. they can be very effectife against certain armies and not do anything useful at all against others. But they sure are fun to field. But they too are a point intensive unit that is rather fragile. they are good at dodging shooting but if anything comes into hth combat with them they are dead. so if you already take the saurus cavalary, ANOTHER expensive but fragile unit would do you no good =)

Do you already know what armies your enemies will be using mostly? maybe you would want to adjust your list accordingly.

 

[Ninjaskink]

ninja like skink attack... You're calling my name here. And while this type of army would be really fun to field and fluff wise is something I very much picture when thinking of how the lizards would be dealing with those trespassing on the Lustrian continent... gaming wise you won't see it as effectively as it should be. While this sort of army would better fit the 40k kill team style of gaming, FB is more of both armies meet on a designated field and line up ahead of time... think the battles from Braveheart if you've seen the movie.

If you still think this is the route you'd like to go, then by all means, have at it. Just remember that the lizardmen have issues with points, as Axolotl already pointed out, so aside from skinks you'll really need a good idea of what you plan to field and understand the hinderances of each of those units. So have a plan for how you want your ninja skills playing out before you hit the field because nothing outside of your skinks will be anywhere near expendable, especially at such a low point count. I'd suggest going through several of the other threads, namely the ones talking about individual unit types, to get a good feel of what the weaknesses of each unit type is so you can plan accordingly.

Hope I could help, and I hope the cold blooded warriors of lustria do you well (If you decide to take them).

 

[Calaith]

Thanks again guys,

hmmmm...that's a shame, I really liked the look of the cold ones...

Ok, so if I don't take cold ones, or a mounted saurus hero, that eliminates up to 400-500 points? That way I can field 1 or 2 skink priests for cheaper to support my mass of skinks, some salamanders for their killing power, and some terradons because they're cool. Then pack the rest of the list up to the eyeballs with as many skinks as possible, again trying to keep things on the cheaper side so I can use numbers as an advantage.

One unit that keeps resurfacing, but I simply don't like the look of (model wise), are the Kroxigors. I'll take a look at them when I brush through the army book, and maybe I can be persuaded if they can be fitted in behind everything else I'd like to field.

No I don't have the army book yet, I'm hesitant to buy it (understandably) in case it is re-released in February as I've heard rumour. I am trying to borrow it from a friends older brother though, who used to collect (sold his armies) but has most of the rulebooks still.

Thanks again, Cal


EDIT: Oh, and no I could be facing anybody and everybody. I have no friends that play, so I'm probably going to be heading to my local GW and try and locate gaming clubs near me to start playing.

 

[Carlo Marx]

The force would focus more on large numbers rather than singular characters or elite units carrying the game, and would be designed to be quite mobile and capable of reaching the enemy quickly.

Thats how I field my lizzies, keep unit prices as low as possible and don't steam-roll. Worked wonders in 6th edition, but with 7th out and the 40k guys taking it over and fucking it up, steam-rolling has gotten alot more popular.

 

[Carlo Marx]

If your fielding lots (all) skinks kroxigors are your saving grace. you can keep them out of sight behind a skink screen and when the time is ripe run through the skinks and wail on whoever gets in your way. Normally one unit cannot charge through another, but the Kroxies have a special rule that negates that and lets 'em charge through a unit of skinks.

How ever those skinks have to take a LD (leader ship) test o rnot be able to do anything the next turn. And with their low LD than alot of the time they will fail.

If your army is skink based I would suggest taking a JSoD (jaguar saurus of doom). Outfitting him as cheaply as possibly he comes out to 111pts (taking light armor, either a shield or a great weapon, and the Jaguar charm) and he can keep up with your skinks with a movement of 9 giving hi LD out where it is needed so your army doesn't run off the board and has the str to pack a punch when ever he gets into combat (especially with a great weapon).