8th Ed. Cold one cavalry

[wolfmage]

Although I often stand up for cold ones as to their uses I have finally realised the points cost compared to other things.
Looking at my 2000 point army list I realised that my 8 full command cold ones were the same cost as 30 extra temple guard.
Think how many saurus, skink and other nice beasties you can get for those amounts of points It seriously increases my Slann's protection from 10 TG to 40.

 

[JohnMavrick]

It comes down to points and usage I think. Generally speaking I do not run any command in my Cold Ones unless I'm putting a hero or lord in it (always a musician though, always). Not to mention I generally found that taking more than five or six isn't generally more effective so I keep my units smaller.

As for points, sure you can put those extra points into TG or Saurus or skinks or even towards stuff like Stegs or that Carnosaur you've been wanting. But there isn't any unit out there that has the range and mobility combined with hitting power as the CoC (although stegs come an awefully close to tie).

I'll probably never fully drop my CoC in games at 2K and above. There are games that I'll drop them in favor of more Saurus or skinks or whatever. But this is mostly to throw off my opponents and to break away from my usual list. This topic comes up time and time again with basically the same arguements. "They don't support their points value." "Their Init. 2 now so almost always strike last." "Small units are ineffective, large units are a points sink." There are all things we have to work around and consider into when designing our forces. If you know you can use CoC then take them. If they don't work for you then don't, I'll not disown you as a Lizardmen player and damn you into eternal Old One hell LoL!

 

[Bibamus]

CoC are crap.

i guess i have to suppoert that.

ignoring the point cost its a unit that can charge barely more than a Skorx unit, can't deny ranks unless you spend allmost 1/4 of your point allowance on them (2k games) and are liekly to lose combat even in normal circumstances. if you charge any unit with the AP banner you can probably say goodbye to them with only T4. they also have to beat a static CR of 4 if they don't have banner and you charge a large enougu nit, otherwise you are hitting elite infantry or other cav, both of wich are likely to decimate your CoC even if you get t strike back.

add to that the point cost. 30 TG isn't a better choice usually, but diciding those points among your troops is usually a good ideea. my solid 2k list can't even afford a skorx unit wich is a bit cheaper than a serious CoC unit.

i can see their advantages, but they can't be compared to what they did in the last edition, and they will be usefull in some rare cases, maybe against some monsters. i can see hydras falling to them, you can givce the champ the BBoC wich helps killing big monsters with regen... but we have skinks for that.

i really can't see any use for them compared to other units, and i'm rather ignorant to try them myself, but aslong as they give good results to you, keep using them, but do try the alternative aswell.

 

[Grey Mage]

Well a base unit of 5 is only a little over 200pts with a full command, and seems like it would be a useful enough unit for flanking and trying to deny enemy units their rank bonus... True, its almost as much as a 20 strong saurus unit, but if it makes the enemy break all the faster and keeps them from flanking your infantry blocks it seems like it would be worth it- the extra movement would really come in handy, to make sure your not being out maneuvered by the enemy any more than you have to.

Am I missing something?

 

[strewart]

I probably wouldn't put FC on a unit of 5... At that size they are more medium infantry, any role you choose for them will not benefit from FC (flank charging, you will have a unit at the front with command. Hunting small stuff, won't need it) and it gives away a lot of points too easily if they get shot at.

if you charge any unit with the AP banner you can probably say goodbye to them with only T4. they also have to beat a static CR of 4 if they don't have banner and you charge a large enougu nit

Don't get me wrong, I can't justify taking them either. But this particular point surprises me. You are saying T4 2+ AS heavy cavalry are soft? Wow. T4 is above average, cav with T3 are harder enough to cut to pieces normally. Granted if you fight infantry with high strength weapons then yes you are in trouble. Also, their low initiative is a bit of a problem. But they should be able to almost completely survive the attacks from a basic infantry unit, then strike back and slaughter a horde of them with 2 s5 attacks each PLUS the high strength CO attack.

 

[Bibamus]

the problem is with the high number of attacks coming back at them. even if the opponents wound on 5's, a 3+ save can be failed easyer than a 2+ (obviously) but now with allmost any unit being able to take an AP banner the CoC will fall like flies. T4 is good, but our saurus have T4 aswell, and we see how easy they fall.
P.S. any hero will probably rip them in pieces and so will warmachines and probably massed shooting aswell, i've taken down blood knights with 20 skinks double tapping.

a CoC is a saurus with a 2+ save, 1 extra attack and a circumstantial +1S wich they lose anyway if combat takes more than 1 turn (and it usually does in this edition) but it costs as much as 3 saurus.

not to mention most (if not all) magic missiles in the game are S4, so thats 4's to wound and a 3+ save. get 2D6 hits on a unit and it will hurt as hell, if not make the unit completely usuable. if you want defend against magic missiles you either need a MR banner or items for the champ (he can get magic items iirc) wich only add to the cost of the unit, and then there are other spells to cripple the unit. -S from lore of shadows, I tests, reduced movement, etc.

when considering units i imagine myself facing hem, and if i would see CoC's on the opponents side i'd focus on them 1, MAX 2 turns just to wipe them and get a huge boost to VP. can't say that about the other units in a LM army wich are considered usefull (i.e. not swarms or razordons). its true that losing such a unit wouldn't cripple the opponent from a tactical point of view (given the comparison to saurus above) but it will reduce his forces by nearly 1/4 if its a unit capable of denying ranks (10+ models).
if its a small, 5 man unit tough, i probably wouldn't bother with them, knowing they can't hurt me as much as i can hurt them once they get into close combat.

 

[novatomato]

ok, I'm going to counter a few of your points bibamus for the sake of keeping this thread going in a Positive and Constructive manner.

1. yes COC will be torn apart by massed shooting, but we Lizardmen have a counter to that it is called the Sun Standard of Chotec, this does make them more expensive but really helps them survive that hail of missile fire especially in conjunction with Iceshard Blizzard or Pha's Protection, sure its not a fool proof measure of protection but even Elves have trouble shooting something when they are at -3 to hit.

2. most cavalry have S5 on he charge, where the COC are better is AFTER the Charge, they are still S4, as opposed to S3 of most other cav. what this means is that they are one of the very few cavalry who can grind it out.

3. yes magic missiles are a right pain in the nadgers, and finding a way to counter that is not lots of fun, but consider this, what other spells would the opponent be casting and how many dice does he have compared to yourself. also average of 2d6 is 7, average of half wound (we'll round up) so 4 wounds 2/3 save so that comes down to 2.66(etc, once again we'll round up) 3 saves hardly, one dead COC after an average casting thats not a huge problem. As for the other spells, once again we can dispel the really bad ones and let the really soft ones go through so I fail to see how magic is the bane of this unit, unless as you say the opponent is directing their entire forces at them (If thats the case then I must have forgotten to place the rest of my army)

I will put it to you that COC have a use but most people think that they are too expensive. COC are great at taking out monsters for several reasons; They have decent movement so they can get their and get the charge, they have good WS (4 is the highest WS lizardmen have access to in unit form), they have an armour save that can actually be useful against monsters, they have the volume of attacks that can take a monster out in one or two turns
They are also useful against basic infantry (not elite as those generally seem to be geared to kill COC); the are quick enough to hit the flanks so massed attacks are not possible, they won't be affected by armour reducing attacks because they are hitting a basic unit (ie one that wouldn't have a magical banner unless they've got a BSB, which I will mention later), they have WS greater than or equal to all core infantry and a S greater than all on the charge and greater than or equal to all not on the charge.
NON combat kitted characters can fall to them easily, ie mages and BSB's. Getting into combat with mages is difficult but getting into combat with a unit that has a mage in it, not such a problem and doing so reduces the amount of spells the wizard can cast, making it easier to dispel the ones that matter. BSB's can be tricky because they can still (in most cases) get some good combat potential but it is never the same amount as a fully tricked out character, plus they are almost always hero level characters which means two wounds.

Using the Cold one Cavalry one has to really think about its composition and its purpose and to show that I can somewhat back what I'm saying (I do believe that the unit is full of faults, but I think I can negate those somewhat) I present to you the COC unit that I frequently take and more than not get a good showing from them.

7 COC with full command with banner of swiftness (and no Cold one Champs can not take magic Items, if they could, and please tell where it says so if I'm wrong, they would be much easier to make into a highly useful unit.

along with a Scar-vet on cold one, with light armour great weapon, Dragon Helm, Obisidian Amulet, and Venom of the Firefly Frog (for those pesky ethereals and wood sprites)

this is an expensive unit yes, but it can do a lot and survive, provided it is used adequately.

 

[walach]

i think one thing that probably needs mentioning, i think most people were agreed that CoC were overpriced in 7th to start with, so it's not overly suprising they're even worse value now with the general nerf to cavalry.

about the only way i could see them becoming useful is if everyone stopped taking stuff to counter high AS troops (which seeing as nobody takes much cavalry anymore, you might expect), but as you point out, certainly at the moment, it isnt happening; things like the razor standard are prevalent.

Also, i wondered the difference in survivability of T3/1+AS vs. T4/2+AS, looks a little like this if my maths hasnt failed (wouldn't be suprised...)

For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S4, i would expect 1.11 to die
For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S4 armour piercing, i would expect 2.2 to die
For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S5 i would expect 2.67 to die
For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S5, armour piercing, i would expect 4 to die

For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S4, i would expect 1.66 to die
For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S4, armour piercing, i would expect 2.5 to die
For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S5, i would expect 3.33 to die
For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S5, armour piercing, i would expect 4.4 to die

Not too different, but we are actually worse off in all those examples. No doubt we are better in others, but i'm not crunching numbers all day

 

[n810]

That is why it very important to us use the CoC as flankers to reduce the number of atacks back in half.
Also make sure you use them when making multiple charges on a unit, so you can get a rank bonus from your other unit.

Also don't forget that cold ones cause fear so there is a chance that you will only be hit by ws1 st1 attacks for a turn.

 

[Bibamus]

fear only reduces WS iirc and i'm probably wrong about the magic items for the champ, i haven't used them since 7th so it wouldn't suprise me.

i don't deny that using them in an army affects compositition, the only question is if its worth it.

and i think most cav in the game has S4 base really. DE's sure have, WoC usually has S5, Empire non-vanilla knights have S4(iirc), dragon princes aswell i think. questing/grail knights aswell (again, not sure). so our cavlary is quite mediocre, with the same save any1 else has (WoC knights can safely be ignored and cosndiered he best out there) but more expensive.

also, if you consider charging with multiple units due to the rank bonus, FC is rather useless since you get teh standard and musician from the other unit you charge with.

the biggest problem in my argumentation is that i can't try them out. i don't like fielding units that i consider too weak to function, and if i do i will either confirm my theory if they fail, or consider it luck if they are usefull so i'm biased either way. its also rather hard to break it all down to numbers since the situations on a battlefield is too varied and we'd need 10 pages in this topic to cover them all with the avrage results for all of them.

regarding monsters: they usually have a high I, regen most of the time and a high S, i'd expect half of the to be squished to death before they get to strike and half the wounds the rest manage to be ignored by regen.

regarding your mounted scar vet... why not a halberd? scar vets have a decent I and might get to strike at the same time as other things do, and before dwarves/undead. the way i see it it would add to the survivability of the unit.

also, with this edition, magic is rather unreliable for both sides, magic defense isn't as goo as it used to be and you might just end up not being able to dispell what you need either becasue you don't have enough dice (rumination, sacifical dagger, power stone, etc) or that there are too many spell you want to dispell. and with the new lores its quite hard to pick the lesser of X evils.

 

[rammramm]

i think one thing that probably needs mentioning, i think most people were agreed that CoC were overpriced in 7th to start with, so it's not overly suprising they're even worse value now with the general nerf to cavalry.

about the only way i could see them becoming useful is if everyone stopped taking stuff to counter high AS troops (which seeing as nobody takes much cavalry anymore, you might expect), but as you point out, certainly at the moment, it isnt happening; things like the razor standard are prevalent.

Also, i wondered the difference in survivability of T3/1+AS vs. T4/2+AS, looks a little like this if my maths hasnt failed (wouldn't be suprised...)

For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S4, i would expect 1.11 to die
For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S4 armour piercing, i would expect 2.2 to die
For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S5 i would expect 2.67 to die
For T3/1+AS, from 10 hits at S5, armour piercing, i would expect 4 to die

For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S4, i would expect 1.66 to die
For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S4, armour piercing, i would expect 2.5 to die
For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S5, i would expect 3.33 to die
For T4/2+AS, from 10 hits at S5, armour piercing, i would expect 4.4 to die

Not too different, but we are actually worse off in all those examples. No doubt we are better in others, but i'm not crunching numbers all day

I admit that I am no fan of CoC but this post is forgetting that most units in warhammer are S3 and many units will not have armour piercing.


For T3/1+AS, from 20 hits at S3, i would expect 1.66 to die

For T4/2+AS, from 20 hits at S3, i would expect 1.11 to die

Not a big difference here either but I just wanted to point out that the T4 is usefull when you pit your CoC against the right opponents. This is also the general survivability against shooting attacks which are likely to be at S3.

 

[Clockwork]

I'm going to try out a unit of five-six with a musician, and maybe a standard too, on the flanks. I'll use them as a sort of hammer to the saurus anvil, or a counter to other cavalry. I won't worry about all the attacks they'll recieve, as I only intend to hit flanks with 2-5 models.

 

[novatomato]

As far as I know the only Cavalry that have S4 or better base are knights that cost almost as much or more than ours, Example, Blood knights cost 20 points more than our COC, Dragon Princes I think may be S4 and the cost at least as much as COC, Knights of Chaos to my recollection cost more and I'm not sure about empire knights but I do know that Bret Grail Knights cost more than COC by three points and Questing knights are S4 but with Great Weapons, they are also T3 and have an AS of 2+ so that is worse than our COC, they are cheaper by a few points but have less attacks and a wprse leadership (L8 non cold blooded) the horse has an extra point of movement but less S than the Cold One.
If COC cost as much as the Questing knights, I would be thrilled, that 7 point difference per model can be a huge difference. I agree that they would definitely benefit from a lower points cost and 'point for point' are not as good an investment as other options in our army.
Also Empire knights are either appropriately priced and everyones are too expensive or theirs are rediculously cheap

As for giving my scar-vet the great weapon, theres something to be said for wounding treemen on 3's and treekin on 2's. a Halberd would be useful yes, but it would be better if the unit was more intended for smashing through units, and in that case I would probably change his gear completely (Sword of the Hornet, plus potion of Foolhardiness, or somesuch like)

its also rather hard to break it all down to numbers since the situations on a battlefield is too varied and we'd need 10 pages in this topic to cover them all with the avrage results for all of them.

Why not? it would certainly be interesting to go through it all, and in fact I think it would benefit the entire community if we had some sort of unit by unit analysis started for 8th, I will volunteer my own small experience and insights towards this endeavor should it arise.

 

[strewart]

Several mentions of Dragon Princes, putting it out there from a HE player they are only s3 not s4. Boy would I love them if they were s4. They are impressive enough as is though.

The AP banner? Sure that will be a problem, but remember it is only 1 unit in the entire army if it is even there.

I will put it to you that COC have a use but most people think that they are too expensive. COC are great at taking out monsters for several reasons; They have decent movement so they can get their and get the charge, they have good WS (4 is the highest WS lizardmen have access to in unit form), they have an armour save that can actually be useful against monsters, they have the volume of attacks that can take a monster out in one or two turns

I have to agree with Bibamus here... I wouldn't put my cavalry anywhere near a monster. It is the one thing in the army that has the strength to mostly negate HC armour and will destroy them.

 

[novatomato]

If you strictly only field the minimum unit requirements then yes Monsters will prove to be a difficult thing to chew through but if you use the example unit I provided earlier or other similar set up you will have happy results killing monsters (just don't charge down character ridden monsters, or at least make sure your Scar-Vet on Cold One can take it on in a challenge).
Remember Monsters only get their Stomp against Infantry, warbeasts and Swarms so that HUGE buff they got in the new edition is completely nullified.

And as for Dragon Princes only having S3 base, I will have to have a little discussion with the local High Elf player about lying.

 

[Bibamus]

hmmm.... i was sure the drahon prince had the same statline as DE CoK since most of the units do with different names and special rules.

i'll check the different books tonight and post the point cost of the different knights in the game (cheaper/more expensive/etc, of no numbers) and the differences (i.e. attacks, saves, special rules).

as for fighting monsters, wich monsters are you reffering to specifically? i can see problem with even a hydra that has I2 because of hte handlers 6 AP attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 5's

 

[wolfmage]

On the monster topic, as strwart said, CoC can't really stand up too well against monsters and I resent 800+ points of cold ones with full command and magic banner still losing against 200 point monsters like the hellpit without really putting up a fight as they never seem able to get the charge on enemy units who move out the way or charge with their own cavalry to hold me up for the rest of their army.

 

[JohnMavrick]

I'm thinking Elves are Elves and with that said I believe they are all strength 3 with the exception of characters and the White Lions in HE and the Black Guard (?) of the DE.

I've stated several times why I like to take CoC and I feel my teeth falling out haha. But I feel that CoC are highly under rated. As I say it's all in the purpose you give them. It's true they can not stand up to Chaos Knights but then who can? Sure White Lions with a Razor Standard will chop them to bits but then why would you charge them with a small unit of CoC anyways?

CoC belong on the fringes of the army. They are faster than any other unit in our book except for flyers and if you give them the +1 movement standard they are even faster! They're job is to hit the flanks of units to prove charge support. True taking a unit big enough to negate ranks is a point sink, I'm not going to argue against it. But a unit of 5 or 7 will truely and faithfully wipe a unit out when combined with other charges.

On the flanks they don't have to worry about massive numbers of attacks come to them first, generally less than a half dozen if truth be told. Their armour is good enough to mostly shrug that off barring dice not being in your favor. Then they strike back with three attacks per model! If you add in a unit destroying Scar Vet it's all the more devistating.

As for magic missile or massed shooting. Well their armour saves and high toughness will protect them against a lot and our opponents know it so they concentrate missile fire. That concentration allows yet more of our units to escape unscathed and so get that much needed movement time unharrased.

CoC, in short, are like that supporting wingman in basketball. True they aren't the shining point man who makes all the goals but that's not their point. Assisting other units to destoy the enemy on the charge is where the CoC come into their own.

 

[Xlcontiqu]

I am planning on running a unit of 6+ COC with a Skink mounted on the Horned One with the Skavenpelt Banner. I too think they are overcosted, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in this instance, and I am hoping that they do well.

 

[novatomato]

I have taken out quite regularly treemen, giants, bone giants, cygors, stegadons, Vargulf and Hydras and HPAs when I've got a Scar-Vet in the group. People really overestimate the abilities of monsters, they are powerful yes but they either have a low WS, low number of attacks, and/or low Initiative. The low initiative helps our COC as they will be striking simultaneously. I tend to avoid monsters ridden by super killy lords as I have the magical means to take them down.
If you dont feel like taking on a monster with them then smash into the side of those Lothern Sea Guard, or Empire State Troops. Or Men at Arms. Or even the front of them. There are ways too numerous to get a good performance out of the COC and they fill a role that is lacking in our army list. That of a fast moving, hard hitting durable unit able to disrupt enemy lines. Krox and Skrox can not do this, they are fast but not quite as fast, the are either frail (skrox) or lack a decent AS (Krox), Stegadons CAN fill this role, but the are much better suited to acting in support of our own infantry as they do not have the ability to grind out a victory over a course of a few turns, much like a missile if it hits it goes BOOM if it misses or if it is a dud it just goes Thwump.

Now If you'll give me a couple days I will write out a full and hopefully complete article on the uses of COC. In the meantime, use them or not if you're winning your games and enjoying your games then as you were, if you are having troubles getting that victory maybe its time for a change of thought?