8th Ed. Cold one Cavalry - Worth taking?

[Avatar]

What are people's views on cold one cavalry?

 

[n810]

Well I like them and often take a unit of 6 or 7, but i seem to be in the minority.
They hit hard and stick around and have the best armor save of any of our units (2+).
Best tactics us to use them in combined charges with another unit to the front and cav on the flank.

 

[Arli]

I like using them in larger games. Taking a unit of at least 10 with a couple of scar-vets or an old blood and a scar-vet. The added heroes and/or lord give the unit a bigger punch.

If I am playing lower points games (less than 2.5 k), I will not take them.

 

[Agrem]

I have to say that like n810, I like the cavalry. As the cannons and other templates have become more common they act almost as the stegadons. You can include around 6-7 for the same cost as one stegadon, they pack almost as much punch as stegadon but are more harder to kill than stegadon with templates. They also provide nice bunker for mounted scar veterans.

I think 6-7 is enough and bigger unit wold just cost too much compared to what they bring to the table. Mus+standard and some magical banner would be my build, champion is too expensive.

BR
Agrem

 

[The Hunted]

They can be used, and even to good effect.
In fact, I don't mind taken these guys every once in a while. They pack a hefty punch and that's something your opponents really have to keep in mind. On the other hand, they are quite expensive which is something you have to keep in mind.
Use your chameleons/terradons/skinks to silence the enemy shooting ASAP to protect your expensive troops before the guns do too much damage.

They will chew up low strenght infantry at an alarming rate, S3/S4 troops have big trouble dealing with them. Especially when you combine it with an hammer/anvil tactic. Skrox/Saurii to hold them up and them hammer away with the Cavalry. High strenght infantry (S5+) are more resilient as they can take down your cavalry more easily. Try to avoid these units if possible.

Skrox work relatively well because you have M6 and M7 troops looking to score. Which means it is fast to get into combat, and chews it's way through a lot of models. The skinks soak up the damage, Kroxigor deal damage to high armoured targets and the Cold One Cavalry chews the 'weaker' infantry (or throws so many attacks at high armoured targets even they take casualties). Lethal combination.

Classic hammer/anvil uses the saurii. But that would also mean to be a bit more defensive, your saurus warriors are only M4 so will not get the charge thát often. Being more defensive also means your expensive unit isn't doing anything untill the countercharge. Which is a shame. So I prefer to use them together with Skrox units. You can pro-actively 'hunt' enemy units.

Any unit on the flank is going to have a hard time to deal with these guys.

All in all, depends on how you use them. I quite like to have a mobile-multiattacking-fear causing-hammer

The Hunted

 

[Avatar]

I tried out a unit of 6 yesterday. They were my unit of the match! I gave them Haunchi's blessed totem, they wiped out alot of ghouls, skele's and even a varghulf =)

 

[Zakharov]

I find them slightly hit-or-miss. When I've used them, I run them in units of 6 with Huanchi's totem. They are mobile, rarely fail the stupidity test and can get off some incredible long-distance charges your opponent never saw coming. Unfortunately, my usual opponents play HE so they tend to get cut to bits before they've even struck a blow against anything but archers and flank charges. HE shooting can also decimate a unit in a single phase so watch out.

Against low toughness infantry-based armies (O&G, empire, beastmen, etc) they can be great but watch out for the specialised shooting armies (HE and WE) and any high-toughness/high-strength troops on the table.

 

[thesheepnoob66]

I use them in a unit of 8 in 2000 point games and I find them as a great outrider unit. My chmpion even went toe to toe with konrad von carstein (with help from T.E.O.T.G ward save ability

 

[Ailideon]

I use them in a unit of 8 in 2000 point games and I find them as a great outrider unit. My chmpion even went toe to toe with konrad von carstein (with help from T.E.O.T.G ward save ability

You might want to reread the EOTG ward save ability. It only works on shooting/magic attacks. Also only on those that originate 12 away from the engine.

 

[Scalenex]

My results are very mixed. I usually play dwarves. I usually give them a mounted scar vet with a dawnstone and great weapon.

Sometimes they get ground down by artillery and either wiped out or more likely taken to so few members they wilt in close combat. When they do get to the enemy in numbers though they really earn their keep. I'm thinking of fielding 10 or more in a unit to give them a measure of protection against hated artillery. I'm also more increasingly sticking an iron curse icon with my Scar Vet instead of my Slann (to protect his temple guard versus artillery).

 

[Taipan]

My results are very mixed. I usually play dwarves. I usually give them a mounted scar vet with a dawnstone and great weapon.

Sometimes they get ground down by artillery and either wiped out or more likely taken to so few members they wilt in close combat. When they do get to the enemy in numbers though they really earn their keep. I'm thinking of fielding 10 or more in a unit to give them a measure of protection against hated artillery. I'm also more increasingly sticking an iron curse icon with my Scar Vet instead of my Slann (to protect his temple guard versus artillery).

If they're shooting artillery at your cavalry, I'd laugh. Cold Ones are barely worth shooting at, I'd be trying to assassinate the Slann instead (or kill Stegs, like the EOTG).
Ironcurse Icon is worthless, 6+ ward is once in a blue moon going to stop a cannonball or bolt thrower. EOTG is already giving you a 5+ anyway (which, while only slightly better, is 'free').

My problem with COR is they don't hit hard enough for what they cost. You pay through the nose for their high armour save (which human Knights have anyway at about 2/3rds the cost), but have to contend with I2 and Stupidity ruining your day. They are also only S5 on the charge, and because of their huge expense, you're not getting a lot of attacks out of them either (10-man puts out 15 attacks, half of which will hit).

Temple Guard have the exact same profile, but are far cheaper, are always S5, bunker your Slann, and can suffer more casualties before becoming useless.

 

[The Hunted]

My problem with COR is they don't hit hard enough for what they cost. You pay through the nose for their high armour save (which human Knights have anyway at about 2/3rds the cost), but have to contend with I2 and Stupidity ruining your day. They are also only S5 on the charge, and because of their huge expense, you're not getting a lot of attacks out of them either (10-man puts out 15 attacks, half of which will hit).

Temple Guard have the exact same profile, but are far cheaper, are always S5, bunker your Slann, and can suffer more casualties before becoming useless.

They do cost quite a lot, and compared to human-knights they might not seem that good. But a unit of 5-7 can do a big deal of damage to S3/S4 infantry. Something human knights cannot do, they only do damage on the charge and proceed to just 'not dying' after the charge. We still have a buttload of S4 attacks to throw at our opponent.

And yes, TG pretty much share the profile, are cheaper etc etc...they do not move that fast. The movement of cavalry gives you flexibility. You can run around his flank and hammer his units in the flank, something that is way more difficult with temple guard. Cavalry can also make a longer charge, sometimes that can be very helpfull. Cavalry can also be a very effective delivery system for a scary character, something the TG can't do (while, admitted, the Slann is a very scary character).

TG can suffer more casualties before becoming useless, but also need more troops to be effective! I doubt you will run a unit of 10 TG, but a unit of 10 CoR is very powerfull indeed.
You need to invest heavily in TG for them to be usefull, then they can take quite a beating. Ofcourse, CoR aren't cheap: but a unit of 5-7 with musician is affordable and still dangerous.

Point for point, I don't know what the best deal is. But the cavalry allows you to do more on the battlefield. Which is worth it's weight in plastic

The Hunted

 

[Scalenex]

If they're shooting artillery at your cavalry, I'd laugh. Cold Ones are barely worth shooting at, I'd be trying to assassinate the Slann instead (or kill Stegs, like the EOTG).
Ironcurse Icon is worthless, 6+ ward is once in a blue moon going to stop a cannonball or bolt thrower. EOTG is already giving you a 5+ anyway (which, while only slightly better, is 'free').

Against a dwarf player who regularly fields four to six pieces per game, (two organ guns, two cannons, and a grudge thrower is the base level) COR are worth shooting at. There is plenty of war machines fire to go around. For 5 points once in a blue moon saves are a bargain. I don't take EOTG versus a guy who usually takes two cannons. Even if the Steggy survives a round of shooting the priest won't. I have to buy two Stegadons to get one into battle most of the time. I'd rather lose three or four Saurus knights getting into melee then a whole Stegadon. Without cannons I would agree that Stegadons are the clear choice.

Temple Guard are better than COR in most respects. Temple Guard are almost mandatory and COR are an option. Temple Guard and COR have very different niches though. A Temple Guard is a tarpit for tough enemis, anchor to an army center, and bunker for a Slann. CORs are for long range charges, chasing down fast units and hitting flanks.

It's not an either or proposition (unless you are REALLY loading up on Special). You can take both. I'd rather take a Temple Guard unit and COR unit than two Temple Guard units. Just because TG are better on the whole doesn't mean Saurus Cav don't have a role to play.

 

[The Hunted]

Temple Guard are better than COR in most respects. Temple Guard are almost mandatory and COR are an option. Temple Guard and COR have very different niches though. A Temple Guard is a tarpit for tough enemis, anchor to an army center, and bunker for a Slann. CORs are for long range charges, chasing down fast units and hitting flanks.

It's not an either or proposition (unless you are REALLY loading up on Special). You can take both. I'd rather take a Temple Guard unit and COR unit than two Temple Guard units. Just because TG are better on the whole doesn't mean Saurus Cav don't have a role to play.

I don't think TG are mandatory, I think they are too pricey for what they bring to the table. I prefer regular Saurus units and just run my Slann alone. It's nice to know that your slann is safe, but not for that price. I play against High Elves, Empire and Brettonia mostly so the COR's get to work their magic on T3, low S troops most of the time. That's probably why I prefer them

The Hunted

 

[Taipan]

They do cost quite a lot, and compared to human-knights they might not seem that good. But a unit of 5-7 can do a big deal of damage to S3/S4 infantry. Something human knights cannot do, they only do damage on the charge and proceed to just 'not dying' after the charge. We still have a buttload of S4 attacks to throw at our opponent.

Inner Circle Knights rang, they said they're still laughing you're stuck with Stupidity and I2. Also, they hit harder on the charge, despite being puny warmbloods. Lances made of wood are clearly superior to whatever Lizardmen make for halberds.

Grail Knights left another message. They cost 3pts more per model, but have free ward saves that get better the harder you hit them, WS5 and I5, and 2 attacks each. Their wooden spikes also do more damage on the charge.

And yes, TG pretty much share the profile, are cheaper etc etc...they do not move that fast. The movement of cavalry gives you flexibility. You can run around his flank and hammer his units in the flank, something that is way more difficult with temple guard. Cavalry can also make a longer charge, sometimes that can be very helpfull. Cavalry can also be a very effective delivery system for a scary character, something the TG can't do (while, admitted, the Slann is a very scary character).

Oh I agree, but that would be other armies cavalry. Ours are hideously overpriced (srsly, almost all real cavalry sport 2+ saves these days, its not something we should pay a huge premium for), and even on the charge (which, if you're charging a flank, you wanna do damage), they only just manage S5. There are cheaper Core infantry in Fantasy that manage S5, and they hit almost as fast (ie great weapons).

As for delivering characters, Shadow Slann already does that with 'Steed of Shadows'. You don't need to spend points on a huge fire magnet (despite what I've said, COR will rape warmachines, shooty units etc, but all cavalry do) to shield a character.

TG can suffer more casualties before becoming useless, but also need more troops to be effective! I doubt you will run a unit of 10 TG, but a unit of 10 CoR is very powerfull indeed.
You need to invest heavily in TG for them to be usefull, then they can take quite a beating. Ofcourse, CoR aren't cheap: but a unit of 5-7 with musician is affordable and still dangerous.

Not really. Slann takes up 4 space with his giant throne, and a Scar-Vet or Old-Blood attached to the unit takes up another space. So, 20-man for a 25-strong block, or 25 for a 30-strong block.

In terms of affordability, COR are more than twice as expensive, but worse or only the same in many aspects. Their mobility is the ace of course (like all cavalry), but then Stupidity and I2 rear their ugly heads (no more going first on the charge, it's now all about Initiative).

Point for point, I don't know what the best deal is. But the cavalry allows you to do more on the battlefield. Which is worth it's weight in plastic

Temple Guard by a country mile. If you actually examine what each unit does;
TG provide
- a mage bunker second to none (we posses the only one that allows the mage to keep casting, even when the block is in close-combat, and the mage almost never has to fight, due to step up and being the second rank). Which is good, because Slann are pretty easily assassinated otherwise, and if you're not taking a Slann with Lizardmen, I'd be worried
- a combat unit that's reasonably priced compared to Saurus. A 5pt premium for better armour save at range, +1 Strength in close-combat, WS4 and being close to Unbreakable with Slann attached is pretty damn good.
COR provide:
- a cavalry unit that may or may not reach it's destination alive, or in sufficient strength to do much (remember, more than twice as expensive, so all things being equal, you'll have less for similiar points). They will also be out of position to benefit from the Slann, as their job entails ranging ahead of the phalanx to pick on backfield enemy units (cavalry can't engage infantry blocks on their own anymore, they get bogged down and murdered).


Taipan wrote:
Quote:
If they're shooting artillery at your cavalry, I'd laugh. Cold Ones are barely worth shooting at, I'd be trying to assassinate the Slann instead (or kill Stegs, like the EOTG).
Ironcurse Icon is worthless, 6+ ward is once in a blue moon going to stop a cannonball or bolt thrower. EOTG is already giving you a 5+ anyway (which, while only slightly better, is 'free').

Against a dwarf player who regularly fields four to six pieces per game, (two organ guns, two cannons, and a grudge thrower is the base level) COR are worth shooting at. There is plenty of war machines fire to go around. For 5 points once in a blue moon saves are a bargain. I don't take EOTG versus a guy who usually takes two cannons. Even if the Steggy survives a round of shooting the priest won't. I have to buy two Stegadons to get one into battle most of the time. I'd rather lose three or four Saurus knights getting into melee then a whole Stegadon. Without cannons I would agree that Stegadons are the clear choice.

Organ guns you can ignore, they still have to roll to hit, and S5 means you still get pretty good armour saves on the COR, and your T4 means fewer wounds stick.
Have your thought about using some assassin units to deal with those cannons? Camo Skinks and Terradons come to mind.
Magic is also your friend: Light has 'Pha's Protection', which will force a further -1 penalty on the organ guns, and the grudge thrower and cannons shut down on a 4+. Shadow has 'Pit', Life has 'Dwellers'.
Cannons are OP as hell, and not every army has them (Dwarfs and Empire abuse the hell out of their cheap artillery). They are a strong argument against EOTG or Stegs, but they don't completely invalidate the use of our beasts.

Temple Guard are better than COR in most respects. Temple Guard are almost mandatory and COR are an option. Temple Guard and COR have very different niches though. A Temple Guard is a tarpit for tough enemis, anchor to an army center, and bunker for a Slann. CORs are for long range charges, chasing down fast units and hitting flanks.

It's not an either or proposition (unless you are REALLY loading up on Special). You can take both. I'd rather take a Temple Guard unit and COR unit than two Temple Guard units. Just because TG are better on the whole doesn't mean Saurus Cav don't have a role to play.

It is though, because you have limitations on how to spend your points in Special. People see the '50%' allocation and think that means you can spend that. No, at best you can spend maybe 25%. Core is stolen from you, by the inane 25% minimum (which doesn't actually balance anything at all, it just means some armies do what they always do and others have to actually take their near-worthless Core). Slann are expensive as hell, so you can bet on a lot of the 25% for Lords being filled. Heroes usually has an EOTG (notwithstanding cannon spam, which is retarded OP garbage, the Engine is an amazing unit for us), and maybe a couple of Scar-Vets and Priests, so again, significant chunk of their 25% max is also filled. And then, you have to allocate something towards Rare, because Salamanders are so desperately needed to plug the glaring lack of decent firepower in our armies.

I agree that we need cavalry, but in their current incarnation, COR are pretty damn horrible. Other armies cavalry laugh at them, and they eat so many points you'll be lucky to fit even one Temple Guard block or Steg in with them. I love the concept (raptors riding raptors), but the rules just don't do them justice.

 

[The Hunted]

Taipan wrote:
Quote:
If they're shooting artillery at your cavalry, I'd laugh. Cold Ones are barely worth shooting at, I'd be trying to assassinate the Slann instead (or kill Stegs, like the EOTG).
Ironcurse Icon is worthless, 6+ ward is once in a blue moon going to stop a cannonball or bolt thrower. EOTG is already giving you a 5+ anyway (which, while only slightly better, is 'free').

Against a dwarf player who regularly fields four to six pieces per game, (two organ guns, two cannons, and a grudge thrower is the base level) COR are worth shooting at. There is plenty of war machines fire to go around. For 5 points once in a blue moon saves are a bargain. I don't take EOTG versus a guy who usually takes two cannons. Even if the Steggy survives a round of shooting the priest won't. I have to buy two Stegadons to get one into battle most of the time. I'd rather lose three or four Saurus knights getting into melee then a whole Stegadon. Without cannons I would agree that Stegadons are the clear choice.

Organ guns you can ignore, they still have to roll to hit, and S5 means you still get pretty good armour saves on the COR, and your T4 means fewer wounds stick.
Have your thought about using some assassin units to deal with those cannons? Camo Skinks and Terradons come to mind.
Magic is also your friend: Light has 'Pha's Protection', which will force a further -1 penalty on the organ guns, and the grudge thrower and cannons shut down on a 4+. Shadow has 'Pit', Life has 'Dwellers'.
Cannons are OP as hell, and not every army has them (Dwarfs and Empire abuse the hell out of their cheap artillery). They are a strong argument against EOTG or Stegs, but they don't completely invalidate the use of our beasts.

Organs guns do not roll to hit, they hit automatically. One of the very few units that still automatically hit. And these hits hurt! S5, Armour piercing means your COR will feel the pain. Although 1 organ gun is still managable.
We have plenty of ways to deal with enemy war machines. Probably my favorite part of every battle: silencing enemy guns!

@Taipan:

I think we share very different opinions on TG and CoR. This discussion could go on for a few more pages, but I guess we both made our points . I think CoR are solid, not very good or very bad and TG are strong, but quite pricey.
You think CoR are too expensive for what they can do and are too squishy. TG are very good infantry, which are worth their price according to you*

Each to his own!

The Hunted

*:If this is a bad summary, let me know!

 

[NewToFantasy]

I bought the Lizardmen Battallion box when I started up and I have had 8 cold ones sitting around which I have never used, mostly because I usually play Ogres, Dwarves, and other pretty tough CC armies, however a friend of mine is starting a High Elf Army and another friend is starting Skaven (they bought the Island of Blood set) So maybe I'll try out the CoR against those two armies.