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7th Ed. BS 5 Stegadon

DonkeyHotep
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DonkeyHotep

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So here's my theory, a skink chief replaces one of the crew on a stegadon, the howdah weapons are fired by the crew and are not siege weapons, he can fire them.

Obviously spewing out BS 5 bolts would be nice, but is it valid? It seems unquestionable to me that he could use the giant blowpipe, since he would be the only one using it, but can he use his BS with a giant bow even if another model helps?
 
i dont really know, but my interpretation is that in the luzard book it says that the howdah weapons are fired by 2 skink crew.
and becouse it is not a warmachine, it doesn't gain the BS of any character that has joined them.

it's like the same that i got a unit of woodie archers, that shoot at BS4, and they start shooting at BS6 is joined by a hero.. quite odd.
 
That's a preposterously irrelevant comparison. Obviously the wood elf archers couldn't fire ALL their shots at bs 6 simply because the hero can only fire one longbow, and only if he takes it as equipment. However, the howdah weapon is something granted by his mount, similar to your wood elf archer simply buying a bow of his own and firing it. The fact that it takes two to fire it is simply a defect requiring that someone else helps the firer.

Similarly, actual bolt throwers when used by dwarves can use the unit champions BS even though it takes more then one person to fire them. Granted, those are war machines, but that only really matters for giving statistics to the weapon and preventing stand and shoots.
 
To carry on with the dwarf comparison, the only reason you can use the engineer's BS is because he has a special rule called "Artillery Specialist". He can opt to act as crew instead of using Artillery Specialist, in case he needs to replace a lost crewman.

So I'd say unless they state it explicitly, he can't help out the howdah weapons, even though that would be cool.
 
Hmm, yeah I see that rule, sucks, my case for the bow is getting weaker. Anyone know of any other chariot like object that allows a character to fire it's armaments?

Curse you rules that don't support my cheese attempts, I'll get you next time.
 
OK lets go back to the rule book shall we (I'm using the little one you get from BfSP so pages might be different)

Pg 85 War machines; Characters "The war-machine benefits from the characters associated LD value, however only crew may operate the weapon, a character may not (unless otherwise stated)

That's the rules for war machines however the rules don't state them as war machines, the giant bow only pierces ranks like a bolt thrower (which is quite specific in my opinion)

The rules for a stegadon state its a monstrous mount and on looking at the rules, for monstrous mounts, it says nothing about shooting weapons from them. This is fair as the stegadon is an extremely rare set of rules (the only other set that comes to mind is a scrap launcher and you cant join characters to that)

so there's noting there

lets have a look at the context of this then :
-The weapons are not classed as war machines, therefor the comparison to dwarfs is also irrelevant
-this is a mount upgrade (monstrous mount) to the skink character, who displaces one crew. Is it therefor unfair to count the skink character as a member of the crew? I mean he counts as a member of the crew when it comes to targeting by shooting!
- It does not say in the rules for the stegadon that the character may not shoot one of the weapons

To be honest up until reading this thread this situation never entered my mind and well done to the Author for the post. After everything is said i feel that its not unfair to say that the character may fire one of the weapons per turn and my only problem is with the giant bow as it takes two of the crew. Other than that there's nothing that says the character may not shoot the weapon specifically. And before anyone says that there is no place where it says he can it also doesn't say anywhere that you may use a magic weapon in combat only that you may spend points to take one (and you cant use normal weapons) so no semantics please

that's my look on it anyway :D
 
Even if he is part of the crew, you still going to fired at BS3.
 
Allright, then what about using the giant blowpipe? That doesn't require two people at all. Shouldn't he get his own 2d6 shots with that? Here the 2 crew limit is irrelevant.
 
Sure he can fire one of the blowpipes there is absolutely no rule in the book which specifically says he cant. Even in the Lizardman book it says that it takes 1 or 2 of the "CREW" to operate a weapon and therefore we don't have to assume that only the normal skinks have to use it.

and I was just looking at the model for the new steg and it seems they have changed it so that the bolt thrower works more like a conventional bolt thrower i.e is loaded by one of the crew and fired by another.

so on second thoughts if the normal skink crew loads and the character aims and fires it seems fair to think that the BS used is the characters

+ I would like to make it clear that I'm on the Authors side here :D there is no phrase which specifically says that the character may not shoot.
 
This is a very interesting question.... I can cleary so the arguements both for and against it.

Also keep in mind that by replacing one of the crew, there is now one less crew, if he cannot fire it (and really, why wouldn't he move forward and fire?) it makes the weapon weaker. What if the 4 crew die, does that make the weapons unusable because the chief can't do the work himself? Normally you would need 5 crew to die before it is unusable.

This is a case where there will be plenty of arguements for and against..
 
LOL wouldn't that be horrible 4 skinks dead opponent says "no, no he may not take 2 steps forward at man the dart machine gun, i don't want 2d6 bs5 shots of pure poison death fired at my new chosen chaos regiment !"

and there really doesn't seem to be a respectable case anymore against him being able to fire it. I mean you cant say its a war machine cus well ..... its not a war machine. + there is nothing that say he can't shoot the weapon that he essentially paid 275pts to ride on as well.

another great point though strewart :D
 
Hm....indeed a perplexing question. I personally would vote for that he may. Because the way I think about it is the Chief can use any weapon any other Skink can normally, so why not this one?
 
Well the bolt thrower on the stegadon's back certainly shares a lot in common with a warmachine. But GW has once again stuck with a separate category of weapons called "howdah weapons" in order to make life more confusing! I will definitely add some points to the "he can" column for the fact that he replaces one of the normal skink crew.

BS5 bolt throwers are rare indeed. Dwarves can accomplish this feat only by buying a character whose point cost reflects the fact that he can convey the improved firing to the machine. Saying it is not a bolt thrower because it has a different name and is on a steg's back is a pretty thin defense for the chief being able to use them with his BS. Also, letting him use the howdah weapons opens up a can of game balance worms. If not a warmachine, then they are classed I suppose as personal weapons for whoever is using them. What about the item that allows a character to reroll misses on already poisoned attacks? This would make one devastatingly accurate 2d6 set of shots if he can fire a blowpipe. It also gives you a re-rollable poisoned bolt thrower. Seems like something like this would have been mentioned if it were intended. Just depends on whether you like to play rules as written or rules as intended.

I think this one will get FAQ'd for sure. The fact that the giant bow and blow pipes are poisoned attacks lead me to believe that BS3 was probably the max intended. The poison effect in itself is already pretty good. If they FAQ this and say the chief can use the howdah weapons, I'm sure you'll be seeing lots of BS5 BTs! That's just too good to pass up.
 
This argument only really come down to whether or not you want to count the skink chief/priest as a member of the crew.

Anything else is speculation and comparing oranges with houses (i think thats how the saying goes)

That venom of the firefly frog is insane with the giant blowpipes

Well the bolt thrower on the stegadon's back certainly shares a lot in common with a warmachine
Click to expand...
actually it shares one rule in common that is it penetrates ranks and the only reference to the main rule book
 
Ok I just mentioned this in the poison discussion thread, I think it is significant here too and really just reinforces what Old-One said.

Look at the rules on page 55 for stegadons. Does it anywhere say that it is counted as a warmachine? No. All it says in small print after the stats is that it penetrates ranks in the same manner as a bolt thrower. Not 'because it is a bolt thrower', but 'in the same manner as a bolt thrower'. Hell the thing is called a giant bow not a bolt thrower, you could classify it as a really powerful longbow and that would IMO be much more accurate than calling it a bolt thrower, since BT's cannot move and shoot while the giant bow can.

This, of course, means it isn't a warmachine and doesn't follow warmachine rules where characters cannot add their BS aside from Dwarfs. We have to get a reference point from some other long range weapon that isn't a warmachine, and that characters can ride/join. Can you think of any? I sure can't.. Which means it is just a big bow, I would say anyone on the back can use it. This poses a problem with the blow pipes though, does just one or both of them get BS5? Probably just one, but it makes it more complicated than it should be.

The only vague reference I could think of now that I think more is things like dragon breath and maybe terradons dropping rocks. All use their own BS not the riders, yes? But of course the problem with that logic is they use it themselves, while with the steg you use the skinks BS not the actual stegadons, so it is some other creature firing it not the steg itself.
 
I'm not too sure that dragons use BS

but thats not the point

while with the steg you use the skinks BS not the actual stegadons, so it is some other creature firing it not the steg itself.
Click to expand...

This comes down to the fact that the Stegadon and its weapons are linked but separate. In the way that if the stegadon goes (dead) they do too. However it says that the stegadon just carries them into battle and that it takes one crew for a blowpipe and two for a bolt thrower. So..... once again I say that this argument really comes down to whether or not you count the skink chief as a member of the crew

so who thinks he is and let us be done with it (until the errata comes out)
 
actually they form a unit if the steg drops dead. ;)

Or my epic power of reading things wrong and see imaginary texts has shown itself again! :jawdrop:
 
Yes, you read wrong. The skinks die automatically (like chariot crew) when the steg falls, but while none of them can jump free, the character can and he continues to fight.

I guess, sadly, that point may count against us. The chief isn't completely part of the crew since he doesn't die with the crew..

And yeah I know dragons don't need BS for fire breath, but if they did or there was a mount that shot out of its mouth or whatever it would use its own BS. In any case, thats not really the point.
 
strewart said:
Yes, you read wrong. The skinks die automatically (like chariot crew) when the steg falls, but while none of them can jump free, the character can and he continues to fight.

Is this a new rule, becouse in 6th edit, the steggi had the Ridden Monster rule, making the crew form up as skirmishers when the mount was slain..
Click to expand...
 
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