8th Ed. Arcane Unforging on Banners

[Knight Errant]

Having this debate on another forum...

Can Arcane Unforging destroy magical banners? If so, can it be used to target the normal banner bearer in a unit and thusly destroy the unit's magical banner (such as banner of the world dragon?) If so, would the unit count as not having a banner, or still a 'normal' banner?

What about a BSB? If you destroy the banner what happens, if anything, to the 'hold your ground' rule?

 

[sirkently]

My take:

Yes, you can target a normal standard bearer in a unit.
Assuming he has a magical banner you can destroy it, but he would still count as a standard bearer
Destroying a magical banner carried by the BSB would still leave him as a BSB without a magical banner, just a mundane one.

That is how I would play it. I am going by rulings in the past that have said that if for example you destroy a magical sword, it is still a sword.

 

[Caneghem]

My take:

Yes, you can target a normal standard bearer in a unit.
Assuming he has a magical banner you can destroy it, but he would still count as a standard bearer
Destroying a magical banner carried by the BSB would still leave him as a BSB without a magical banner, just a mundane one.

That is how I would play it. I am going by rulings in the past that have said that if for example you destroy a magical sword, it is still a sword.

Yeah, that's the only fair way to play it, being able to snipe the battle standard that way would be over the top.

 

[Andrinor]

I thought this same thing - must be the part time Skaven player in me.

It is definitely FAQ worthy but I can't imagine they would you destroy the BSB ability entirely.

 

[Caprasauridae]

The Arcane Unforging being able to destroy the BSB ability wouldn't even make sense as you can always have a BSB without a magic standard when you put your army together, so clearly the ability of the BSB to make troops Hold Their Ground is not related to the magical properties of the battle standard. Same applies to the normal standard. It is what the standard means, not what it does.

 

[shahryar]

if i remember a faq somewhere answered this basically stating it becomes a non magic thing of the same type.
magic sword becomes sword magic banner becomes banner magic horse becomes horse.

 

[Blackthorne]

I'm pretty sure that that's not right. When you destroy something, it loses all the bonuses and essentially ceases to be, it doesn't just become a mundane version of itself. Here is the FAQ I found addressing it:

Q: What happens if a magic item is destroyed by any means?
(Reference)

A: All of the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by that magic item
are lost, and have no further effect on the battle.


So if you destroy the banner of the world dragon, you also destroy the banner on the unit. I'm also pretty sure that that would affect the BSB who would lose his hold your ground rule.

 

[sirkently]

I'm pretty sure that that's not right. When you destroy something, it loses all the bonuses and essentially ceases to be, it doesn't just become a mundane version of itself. Here is the FAQ I found addressing it:

Q: What happens if a magic item is destroyed by any means?
(Reference)

A: All of the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by that magic item
are lost, and have no further effect on the battle.


So if you destroy the banner of the world dragon, you also destroy the banner on the unit. I'm also pretty sure that that would affect the BSB who would lose his hold your ground rule.

Everything about the magic on the item ceases to function. It says nothing about destroying the item itself, just that none of its magic functions anymore. The banner itself will retain its function as a mundane item. That would be way to powerful of a spell if you could knock out a BSB with it. 25+ at least.

 

[Blackthorne]

Everything about the magic on the item ceases to function. It says nothing about destroying the item itself, just that none of its magic functions anymore.

This is just not true. Reading it, it says nothing about the magic on the item or the mundane. It says ALL the bonuses and such are lost, not the magic bonuses are lost. If it said "all the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by the magic ON that item, I would agree" (emphasis mine), but it doesn't.

 

[deeyo]

In my opinion, if you insist that bsb banner etc destroyed as well as its magical properties by arcae unforging, you might find people who wants to play with you decreasing at best or you might receive some metal bsb figure to head at worst

 

[sirkently]

Everything about the magic on the item ceases to function. It says nothing about destroying the item itself, just that none of its magic functions anymore.

This is just not true. Reading it, it says nothing about the magic on the item or the mundane. It says ALL the bonuses and such are lost, not the magic bonuses are lost. If it said "all the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by the magic ON that item, I would agree" (emphasis mine), but it doesn't.

All of the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by that magic item

You have destroyed the magic item and the person who had it no longer gets any rules, bonuses, etc. granted by the magic item.

The stand your ground rule was purchased in upgrading to a BSB. It says nothing about taking that away. I don't care if the banner has been burned away or whatever. I will stick my underwear on top of the pole, and my troops can rally around that.

He is still the BSB.

 

[Smexygor]

"That item is immediately destroyed and cannot be used for the rest of the game."

How that affects their BSB, I dunno. He'd still be a BSB as far as I know, just no more magic banner. Magic banner didnt make him a bsb, the 25 points they paid separately did.

 

[MI_Tiger]

Everything about the magic on the item ceases to function. It says nothing about destroying the item itself, just that none of its magic functions anymore.

This is just not true. Reading it, it says nothing about the magic on the item or the mundane. It says ALL the bonuses and such are lost, not the magic bonuses are lost. If it said "all the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by the magic ON that item, I would agree" (emphasis mine), but it doesn't.

By this strict interpretation, a hero would lose all its attacks if you destroyed his magic weapon. I can't believe that is what is intended.

So the RAW is debatable, but I think RAI is clear - the item becomes a mundane version rather than being totally destroyed.

 

[n810]

What about the previous ruling in the lizardmen book where a destroyed Horned One (magic item) would turn into a cold one if destroyed?

 

[Blackthorne]

I never said he would lose his BSB rules, but that he would lose the banner. I agree that the book never says the hold your ground rules are reliant on a banner but are just a special bonus of the upgrade to a BSB at all. I do believe that they would lose the +1CR bonus though and any other rules that come specifically from having a standard.

Everything about the magic on the item ceases to function. It says nothing about destroying the item itself, just that none of its magic functions anymore.

This is just not true. Reading it, it says nothing about the magic on the item or the mundane. It says ALL the bonuses and such are lost, not the magic bonuses are lost. If it said "all the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by the magic ON that item, I would agree" (emphasis mine), but it doesn't.

By this strict interpretation, a hero would lose all its attacks if you destroyed his magic weapon. I can't believe that is what is intended.

So the RAW is debatable, but I think RAI is clear - the item becomes a mundane version rather than being totally destroyed.

No, that's not true. Somewhere in the BRB (I don't have it on hand), it mentions that models are always assumed to carry a hand weapon along with their gear loadout or are assumed able to pick one up easily on the field. In this way, they always count as having a hand weapon. So you wouldn't lose your attacks, but if you had a magical great weapon, you would lose that and would be forced to fight with a hand weapon, not a mundane great weapon.

 

[MI_Tiger]

That was definitely true in 7th edition, when you always had the option to use your hand weapon instead of spears, great weapons, ... I'm not sure if the rule is repeated in 8th or not.

 

[n810]

Yep it's definitely still there.

 

[Siege]

How about we use rules lawyering to fight rules lawyering...

The unit upgrade purchased when buying command for unit is not a banner, it' a Standard Bearer. In the rulebook, the combat resolution bonuses are conveyed by the Standard Bearer, not the banner itself. If it helps you think of it this way: the banner does nothing. You're just buying a really charismatic guy. People like him.

When he loses his magic banner, he doesn't care. He whips out his hand weapon and goes about his business, granting any non-magical bonuses that a standard bearer would usually grant, because he's just a really great guy. End of story.

 

[Caneghem]

What about the previous ruling in the lizardmen book where a destroyed Horned One (magic item) would turn into a cold one if destroyed?

As an aside, I really wish they would have kept the Horned One as a normal mount in this book. Make it somewhat expensive, but allow saurus characters or a skink chief to ride one.

 

[Spiney Norman]

I'm pretty sure that that's not right. When you destroy something, it loses all the bonuses and essentially ceases to be, it doesn't just become a mundane version of itself. Here is the FAQ I found addressing it:

Q: What happens if a magic item is destroyed by any means?
(Reference)

A: All of the rules, bonuses, etc. granted by that magic item
are lost, and have no further effect on the battle.


So if you destroy the banner of the world dragon, you also destroy the banner on the unit. I'm also pretty sure that that would affect the BSB who would lose his hold your ground rule.

No it doesn't work like that

Magic banners work slightly differently to other magic items because you can only take a magic banner if you already have a banner, so a unit standard bearer can take a magic banner to add to his unit standard and a BSB can take a magic banner to add to his battle standard.

Note that nowhere anywhere in the rules is there any suggestion that the magic banner replaces the existing unit standard/ battle standard so its probably easiest to think of it as the standard bearer having two standards, his units standard/battle standard and his magic banner which is stuck on it. The magic banner is not the unit standard/battle standard and vice versa, they are two diffrent items with independent effects, so there is no reason why the magic banner cannot be destroyed leaving the unit standard/battle standard intact.