7th Ed. Anyone use the new Razordons yet?

[Scarloc]

The only downside I can see is do salamanders get to stand and shoot? If they dont they will be charged without fear.

 

[Aren]

The average artillery dice roll is 5 ((0+2+4+6+8+10)/6). On a normal shooting phase, three of them will put out 15 shots on average, with 7.5 of those hitting. A stand and shoot doubles that, assuming one misfire doesn't stop the other artillery dice roll. So 15 hits can be expected on average.

I don't think you can leave out the potential of a misfire, especially when you statistically will get 1 (6 dice * 1/6 probability = 1 misfire).

Then 1 razor would eat skinks and you would get 10 hits on average.

 

[Caneghem]

They don't get to stand and shoot, so they will be a unit you have to protect. Their ability to move and shoot though makes them a lot more user friendly. If they couldn't move and shoot you'd have to leave them stationary too much and they'd really be only suited for more defensive lists, and also it would be much harder to protect them while still getting to use their ability.

"I don't think you can leave out the potential of a misfire, especially when you statistically will get 1 (6 dice * 1/6 probability = 1 misfire)."

The average of 5 on the artillery dice already accounts for misfires, which is why I added in the 0. I was also working under the assumption that if a razordon on a stand and shoot rolls a misfire and a 10, then you would work out both results and not just the misfire. As someone has already pointed out, if a misfire cancels the other roll from the same razordon, you are actually statistically worse off rolling two artillery dice than just one.

 

[hellbreaker]

Actually I think that if a razordon misfires when it S&S it stops, and don't resolve any other results.

 

[Caneghem]

Actually I think that if a razordon misfires when it S&S it stops, and don't resolve any other results.

That was just a random ruling made by a low-level GW employee. If this were true, then it renders razordons near worthless, because you are statistically worse off rolling two than one artillery dice. A smart enemy will just charge a couple of cheap units at them to quickly wipe out the skink handlers. Razordons are a poor enough choice comparatively speaking, no need to burden them further!

Common sense wise, there is no reason one misfire would prevent the other roll. The razordon is pissed that it is being charged, so it flings forth a double-dose of spikes. If it were intended that you roll two in sequence, stopping if the first is a misfire, then this would have been mentioned in the army book. The only reason people roll them in sequence is that typically they only own one artillery die.

I see a misfire in this case as the handlers getting in the line of fire. No reason why this would keep the creature from firing more shots.

 

[Quetzalicious]

As a long time skaven player that is used to flame template+arty (warpfire throwers) I love the salamanders, a few things I can verify for everyone:

the flame template is 8" long, so range is up to 18"

auto panic on 1 casualty is worth a ton of points, and with a long template you can easily hit multiple units if positioned correctly

with the amount of regen out there now flaming attacks are great to have, the fact that many of these regen items are banners or heralds requiring a unit of decent size to be with them, the flame template is going to scare these units more than the equivalent of 10 crossbowmen

1 salamander can do a ton of damage, 1 razordon..not so much. so they are great for filling in points if you just have 75-80 left . I can see razordons having a use, but only if you take multiples of them, making for a rather expensive choice.

 

[hellbreaker]

does salamanders have flaming attacks?
Might have missed something but I'm not sure.

 

[CylonDorado]

does salamanders have flaming attacks?
Might have missed something but I'm not sure.

Yes, they certainly do.

 

[strewart]

Actually I think that if a razordon misfires when it S&S it stops, and don't resolve any other results.

That was just a random ruling made by a low-level GW employee. If this were true, then it renders razordons near worthless, because you are statistically worse off rolling two than one artillery dice. A smart enemy will just charge a couple of cheap units at them to quickly wipe out the skink handlers. Razordons are a poor enough choice comparatively speaking, no need to burden them further!

Common sense wise, there is no reason one misfire would prevent the other roll. The razordon is pissed that it is being charged, so it flings forth a double-dose of spikes. If it were intended that you roll two in sequence, stopping if the first is a misfire, then this would have been mentioned in the army book. The only reason people roll them in sequence is that typically they only own one artillery die.

I see a misfire in this case as the handlers getting in the line of fire. No reason why this would keep the creature from firing more shots.

Hmm if I recall correctly, the dwarf organ gun (and empire too?) gets several dice and if a misfire is rolled, it keeps rolling anyway. I definitely agree that a misfire shouldn't stop the razordon getting the other shot.

 

[Arromanche]

Last week two Razors were charged by High Elf Phoenix Guard. 34 shots! Of which 12 hit on 4's, of which 6 wounded, of which he made no armors saves, of which he then made 5 ward saves. So I kill only one but then held them for 3 rounds of combat before breaking but sallys could have done that as well. They WERE intimidating though. He refused to move his dragon princes or flying hero close to them. :

 

[Caneghem]

Actually I think that if a razordon misfires when it S&S it stops, and don't resolve any other results.

That was just a random ruling made by a low-level GW employee. If this were true, then it renders razordons near worthless, because you are statistically worse off rolling two than one artillery dice. A smart enemy will just charge a couple of cheap units at them to quickly wipe out the skink handlers. Razordons are a poor enough choice comparatively speaking, no need to burden them further!

Common sense wise, there is no reason one misfire would prevent the other roll. The razordon is pissed that it is being charged, so it flings forth a double-dose of spikes. If it were intended that you roll two in sequence, stopping if the first is a misfire, then this would have been mentioned in the army book. The only reason people roll them in sequence is that typically they only own one artillery die.

I see a misfire in this case as the handlers getting in the line of fire. No reason why this would keep the creature from firing more shots.

Hmm if I recall correctly, the dwarf organ gun (and empire too?) gets several dice and if a misfire is rolled, it keeps rolling anyway. I definitely agree that a misfire shouldn't stop the razordon getting the other shot.

Well the rules for those two guns state that the rolls are done in order. The Orgun Gun just lets you trade out your first roll for a second roll (except a misfire), and if you misfire on the second roll it just doesn't shoot. The Volley Gun for Empire has some wacky misfire table that sometimes it keeps firing, sometimes it fires what you have so far and blows up, etc.

 

[anton]

No razardons dont get the 2nd shot when they stand and shoot if one of the two shots missfires. In the book it says if the razardon rolls a misfire it may not shoot that round. I dont understand where your getting these statistics. Statistically speaking if 2 out of 3 razordons explode you still get 2 artillery dice worth of shots out. If you missfire with 1 razordon when your just shooting normally its the same. To me it always seems like 1 razordon must misfire but i rarely get 2. I run 2 units of 3 razordons and i absolutly love them. They are compleatly random, last time i used them i had a unit fo ogre bulls and a bruser charge them. I ended up explodign with one razordon and rolling 18 shots EACH for the other 2 razordons thats 32 shots. Of which like 21 hit and 10 hit the unit and 11 hit the burser. The bruser got taken down to 1 wound and the unit was killed before it got to me. I then finished off the bruser with my 4 str 5 attacks after he killed 1 of my kittys. The problem with razordons is that they are really random, but what ever thats what makes your opponent think twise before charging them.

 

[Sart]

I dont like Razordons simply because you need to roll to hit... and vs the types of things you need them to be able to take out (Otherwise they themselves get smashed) They tend to miss alot due to modifiers... Skirmishers ladies and gents. Salamanders used to be lord of the Skirmishers Wardancers would flee in terror flying units would huddle in a behind a hill and even Knights disliked the slamanders...

Razordons roll to hit and suffer modifires for shooting at some types of unuits skirmishers for instance.

I found I would try to use them defensivly but opponents would just ignore me Knowing that if they came in they could just wail on skinks and get free combat resolution... and also knowing their shooting was under par. (Very similar to a Ogre Lead belcher)

The salamanders on the other hand!! Simply fantastic.
Run them in 2x Units of 1 and watch your opponents army melt away.
I run them in 2x Units of one for 2 reasons Means I can fire at multiple targets and it also is less points to give away to the opponent if they are caught and get killed.

Also for Comp reasons if I was to take more then 2 I would get hammered in comp

So in short Razordons = Gimmick and are a fail unit
however on the up side Slamanders = Fantastic unit capable of controling a flank through Panic checks and damage HOWEVER be aware they are not like the previous Salamanders.