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7th Ed. Anti-Dwarf Help! THEY HAVE TOO MANY GUNS!!

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Jungle Swarm

Saurus.rar

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So I have a few close friends that are the regulars who game with me, and the one problem I keep coming up with is...

Dwarves.

Stubby, bearded, surly, powder-using, axe-wielding Dwarves.

If it's not the firing lines, it's the quarrelers. If it's not the quarrelers, it's the bolt throwers. If it's not the bolt throwers, then it's definitely the cannons. And if it's not the cannons... Well, you get the point.

I need suggestions as how to deal with these problems if all your opponent fields are ranged units. Another friend of mine plays Empire, and seems to enjoy modelling unit choices after the Dwarves. Another plays elves... But he never wins, so never mind that.


Suggestions are welcome! So far everything I send at him gets massacred. Terradons get shot. Salamanders get shot. Chameleon skinks are mildly successful. Then get shot.

Halp.
 
Can you give an example of his list? That could help us, decide the best choice. Gunlines can be hard to face, but Lizardmen have some great tactics to get rid of them.
 
I think (roughly) his list looks something like this. 1750 points.

10 Quarrelers
(2x) 10... Rifleman?

2 Cannon
2 Bolt throwers
1 Stone Thrower

20 Longbeards

2 Runepriests (or whatever they're called. Not runelords.)



That is what comes to mind, though I may be over/underexaggerating a bit. The point is he takes maybe 2 melee units if I'm lucky and a helluvalotta artillery and ranged units.

It turns me into swiss cheese. The last time I went up against him he took out my ancient steg with EotG on turn one. With just his stone thrower. I rolled poorly, but that should just not happen. Ever. :depressed:
 
Well for one, the amount of shooting and anti magic he has takes out a lot of the options you have. I would ask him to take less of a gunline.

Here is some advice: take a Slann with the 2+ ward and only magic weapons can hurt him. Put him in the middle of the field if he does not have any runes on his warmachines. If he does, hide behind a hill, take lore of life and use the spells if he is close to terrain. Take Terradons and try to get them into forests and within charging distance of his war machines. With the amount of warmachines he has it will be tough to take any large target out from behind cover. Maybe try to take an FSoD to destroy his warmachines and a JSoD for the same purpose. You need quick movement and lots of magic to combat this list. Do not take Saurus, or put them behind cover the entire game. They will be easy points until you take out his shooting.

Biggest help, use terrain to your advantage. Move from one piece to another and take fast units. If he is going to take 5 warmachines and 3 other shooting units, just take lots of units of Terradons and fly at him. He is not going to be able to take out 4 units in two turns.

If this does not work, I have one other piece of advice: Get the table side with a hill, put up your 5+ ward, and hide behind it all game. If you have the Lore of Life, I believe you do not need LOS, so just blast with magic from behind the hill all game. He will not be able to get any points off you if he cannot see you. If you have last turn, come out of hiding and blast him with magic.
 
lore of life is a huge help against gun lines. you get a spell that ignoers S4 or less shooting within 12", you get rain lord wich gives him a -1 to hit or -2 if he has armor piercing, war machines can only fire if they roll 4+ 1st. master of stone kills a lot of things that are on hills [where war machines usually are]. combine this with skink priests casting celestial shield on units that need to get to him and our outside the slann bubble. the EotG also provides a 5+ ward save against cannnons and other nasty stuff. the magic missiles in the lore of heavens have unlimited range and re worth casting at war machines, i suggest do that.
the gunline has 1 major flaw, it doesn't move. if you just wait for him to come to you and blast his cannons from afar he will either indded come to you or just stay behind so you can get a minor victory after 6 turns of magic.
 
Well I don't really want to be that cheap about it. Hiding and magic blasting doesn't exactly seem like much fun hahaha. I was thinking if there was terrain available a fast army would be good, i.e. CoR, Terradons, Sallies and the like.

Quick question: what are JSoD and FSoD?
 
Saurus.rar said:
Well I don't really want to be that cheap about it. Hiding and magic blasting doesn't exactly seem like much fun hahaha. I was thinking if there was terrain available a fast army would be good, i.e. CoR, Terradons, Sallies and the like.

Quick question: what are JSoD and FSoD?
Click to expand...

If your opponent is taking that much shooting, you need to be that "cheap". Or just have a sit down and tell hm that you are not going to play him until he tones his list down. It may take an unfun game or two, but once your cheesy opponent sees how unfun it is to play against cheap lists and tactics he will hopefully make more fun lists.
 
Saurus.rar said:
Quick question: what are JSoD and FSoD?
Click to expand...

J/FSoD = Jaguar/Flying Saurus of Doom. A saurus scar-vet with a great weapon, venom of the firefly frog [sometimes] and the jaguar charm. its a character that flies off in the 1st turn and rapes anything he touches as long as that thing doesn't have too much static [i.e. chariots, war machines, lone wizards, etc]
 
FSoD is the Flying Skink of Doom. A Skink Chief with a Terradon or Cloak of Feathers and weapons to power him up.

JSoD is the Jaguar Saurus of Doom. That is a Scar-Vet with Charm of the Jaguar Warrior and a great weapon normally.

I would strongly recommend playing an unfun game against him. If he realizes how boring it is to play against cheap tactics, then hopefully he will tone down his list.
 
As a dwarf player, I can tell you that you should at least be glad he's not bringing an organ gun! Those are the nastiest war machines they have available to them, but don't tell him if he doesn't realize it already ;)

Also, his list is illegal if you're indeed telling us everything. He cannot bring more longbeard units than he does warriors. My guess is that he has another block of warriors but you left it out to make it sound like more of a gunline than it is, or you just forgot. If not, then tell him he's bein illegal!

Yes, this is a gunline, but it's not an overly cheap or "cheesy" list that merits crying about at this point. A true cheese list comes at 2000 points when he brings everything you've mentioned + 2 organ guns and an anvil of doom! 5 war machines kinda sucks but those cannons and bolt throwers become overpriced units if you don't give him big multi-wound targets to shoot at. This means keep your steggie hidden until those cannons and bolt throwers are dealt with. You should probably just leave him at home and save the 400 points really. Here's what I would do against this list.

All 3 special choices should be chamo skinks. Make them units of 10 each. Make sure you have deployed a couple pieces of terrain in the middle of the board so you can deploy these in forests or behind buildings. Turn 1, they all come marching out 12 inches. During his shooting phase, laugh if he shoots a cannon or bolt thrower at them because the most he can get is 1 from each shot (if he's lucky). Also, be sure to space them out an inch apart so the stone thrower can't get many even if he lands on em. His 10 quarellers and thunderers will open up on you next. If you've stayed 12 inches away from them, the quarellers are hitting you on 7s (6s then 4+) because you are minus 2 to hit as chamo skinks. The thunderers are hitting you on 6s. On average, you will lose 1.5 chamo skinks per round they shoot at you. So, do the math with me... 2 cannons and 2 bolt throwers will end up killing an average of 2 per round total, plus the 3 from the thunderers and quarellers. Maybe stone thrower gets 2. So, you start with 30 chamo skinks and lose 7 at most. The next turn, you walk up and start shooting at his war machines. The poison will actually kill the machine quite nicely even if you don't hit the crew. Walk them up past his quarellers and thunderers so he has to wheel to shoot at you. Since both of these units cannot move and shoot, this takes them out of the fight for a round. Meanwhile, field 4 more core units of 10 skink skirmishers each. They'll get within shooting range by turn 3 and will provide a nice backup for your chamo skinks. His stubby legged warriors will never be able to catch your speed 6 skinks and the game will be yours. Bring a couple of skink priests with heavens lore to sit behind bunkers and you're all set. This will work great until he starts bringing an organ gun or gyrocopter.

This list is definitely a job for a skink army! Without any big targets or multi-rank units to shoot at, his war machines become crap.
 
I wanted to do a math point analysis for you.

Lets do a matchup of 10 skink skirmishers shooting it out with 10 thunderers. You both want 6s on the to hit roll, in order to do any damage. He needs a 6 because he normally hits on 4 and you are -2 to shooting. You need a 6 for poison. However, since you get 2 shots each... you are shooting 20 times and he is only shooting 10. You will therefore kill twice as many of his guys as he does yours. Yes I know he has a 5+ armor save if he brings a shield to go with his light armor, but this offset by the fact that he still has to roll to wound you after he hits you.

So essentially, your 12 point models do twice as much damage than his 15 point ones do to you!

If you're fighting quarellers then it becomes 3 to 1 since they hit on 7s. And war machines... you are getting an insane point advantage damage ratio with.

Skinks for the win!
 
yeah, don't count on skinks to kill war machines. you probably need 6's to hit and 6's to wound since war machines are immune to poison.
 
The above tactic would work assuming he does not concentrate his fire, but spreads it evenly and assuming that he has not castled around a hill and can attack you with his melee units.
 
I did not realize war machines were immune to poison! Damn! Don't worry bout it though, you'll still get enough crew to make it worth it.
 
Well, since you randomize on the crew and they are wearing light armour, it may be tougher than you think killing the warmachines. It is a 6+ to hit, 6+ to wound on the magic and a 5+ to wound on the crew with an armour save. I would not rely on that to get the job done.
 
Do the math with me...

20 poison shots is gonna be 3 or 4 sixes per turn. Randomize and you're hitting at least one crew on average. They only have light armor, so need a 6 to save. You are therefore killing an average of one crew per turn. Additionally the war machine is only killing an average of .5 skinks per turn (cannon could misfire plus needs to roll a 2 to wound. Bolt thrower needs a 5 just to hit you). 3 turns of shooting and the crew is dead, yada yada. Just stay exactly 12 inches away from the cannon to avoid their grapeshot.
 
Poison does not work on the warmachine, so it does not work thus on the crew also I believe. That means you have to roll to would for both. And concentration of fire would include the three other missile units also. 30 shots is more than enough to take out Skinks.
 
wrong, poison works on crew.

As for concentration, read my whole post. I am proposing 6 units of skinks at minimum. He can't concentrate on every single one.

Being the nerd that I am, I just rolled the shooting aspects of the battle a couple of times. In both instances, with just 7 units of skinks (the first three shooting on turn 2, and the 2nd four shooting on turn 3) they kill all the war machines by turn 5 and still have almost half their numbers. This is WITHOUT even considering magic that you'll be casting at them.
 
For one, you have to randomise against the crew first so you may kill one crewman per turn. If he does not make his armour save.

I do not think you have factored in typical Dwarven tactics into this. They will have both their melee units guarding the warmachines, so they can move up and deal with the threats to their warmachines. Also, if all the missile units shoot at the same skink units then all of a sudden the Dwarf player has one less units to worry about. And if you are using Chameleon Skinks, the Dwarf player is getting much more bang for his buck. If he kills one unit of ten, it is worth much more than the loss of a warmachine.
 
You're not seeing the big picture, unfortunately. Dwarf move speed is 3 inches. Keep your skinks more than 6 inches away and they will never be able to charge you. Your skinks run circles around them.

For the last time, my strategy will be 100% effective. Best part is, all those skinks are less than 600 points total! There's over 1000 points to put all kinds of nasty magic in. I'm thinking 3 level 2 priests with some nasty items and bound spells, plus whatever else you want. Heck, bring 10 more units of skink skirmishers and really watch him cry at all the poison coming his way....
 
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