8th Ed. Answer to Dwarfs?

[monders]

(My first draft of this post ended up being one massive moan-fest and I came across all bitter and a sore loser, so instead of a grudge list I’ll just bullet-point my thoughts and findings and open myself to ridicule from the Old Bloods…)
Played a 4800pt game at the weekend. My LM and a mates DEs vs 4800 pts of dwarfs. A friendly game I hasten to add, so there’s no real butt hurt here, just a feeling of dejection and “I can’t believe I’ve wasted so much money on a such a poor army”

Dwarfs seem to have it all.

Decent movement(!) Well, being able to Vanguard half of their units. Gyro copters.

Magic phase denial.

Incredible shooting, not just the laser guided cannon balls.

Ridiculously tough in combat.

Re-rolling EVERYTHING.

The magic phases were pointless so I’ll not bother with those. My brand new shiny Bastilodon got one shot off, which was then dispelled. Yay.

Shooting was very MEH too. I was ok at rolling 6s for jungle poison, but the Dwarf player was taking armour saves as usual. I’m pretty sure that 6s are auto wounds with no armour save? Should have checked my books more often but got caught up in the flow of the game.

I set up quite poorly in hind sight (and scenery prevented any sort of flanking options), and my CoC could only ‘walk’ on their first movement phase. This set me up to take a charge from two units. I didn’t last long.

My Old Blood on a Carnosaur killed a dwarf before being utterly and completely battered. The Carno took out 3 dwarfs. Not bad for 400-odd points. I think an ASF weapon might be better against other low I armies?

All over by turn three. I had 12 Cham skinks and three rippers left.

So that’s three games with Lizardmen this year (Ogres, Dwarfs, Dwarfs), and three tabling’s. Ogres again have a great movement, decent magic, hit hard, and are hard to kill. We seem to be slow, shoot badly, hit slowly, are super squishy.

Do I need a slann?!

 

[heuningby]

Hey dude,

I feel for you, Dwarves can be a tough match-up for us and a strong gun line can make one feel helpless as there isn't necessarily much we can do. There are many factors that decide a game and can range from army list build and deployment right up to a lucky shot by a bolt thrower at the bottom of turn 6! I urge you to not give up though! Never never never give up.

There are some great tactica in this forum on everything you need to know to become more successful with our Lustrian warriors. See here: http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8681

Now back to advice that I can give... I believe we have the necessary tools to take on a dwarf force and end up victorious although you will need to be cunning and capitalise on their weaknesses.

*Although they can now vanguard, they still only have movement 3 for the most part. They are really on the short end when it comes to mobility... har har har
*They rely heavily on warmachines who don't move and can have limited range, looking at you organ gun.
*They do have magic defense but I don't believe it is so strong to completely shut out the all important spell against them... Comet of Casandora! dam dam dam

Taking on Dwarves, I would suggest building a mobile army (skinks, cowboys etc) and deploying intelligently and defensively. You will need to use terrain and clouds (skinks and chamo's) to hide your heavy hitters from their strongest machine, the Organ gun. Then you will need to hex and take out their warmachines before you can advance. Do this with Iceshard, Comets, Thunderbolts, Terradons, Chamo's and Rippers. It's also worth having a cowboy or 2 with 2++ vs flaming. These you will charge into their Irondrakes. As soon as their ranged threats are dealt with then you can use your superior movement to run around them and set up favourable match ups and charges.

You can also opt for a blitz by concentrating your deployment on one flank and charging in. This will require you to out deploy your opponent which is not always that easy and thus catch him off guard in such a way that you fight half of his army at a time with your whole army. Work really well if you can pull it off.

All this is not so easy to achieve though and will need some practise to perfect. Post your list so the other members with experience against them can also comment. Again I say, never give up! You can do it

 

[monders]

Thanks heuningby, that's just the sort of positive feedback I needed!

The terrain setup didn't favour me at all, and our side of the table was pretty cramped so there wasn't really room for tactical deployment. The magic phase was split between two players so we only really had half a magic phase each with a shared pool of power dice.

I'm going to start attending a local gaming club to get some practice in.

ONWARD TO VICTORY (eventually)!

 

[SilverFaith]

The terrain setup didn't favour me at all, and our side of the table was pretty cramped so there wasn't really room for tactical deployment.

A gunline army on terrain that makes flanking impossible is stupid. That makes it an uphill battle from the start, and the only times we've ever set up such a terrain in my local gaming group, is because we made some interesting scenarios or just set up insane challenges for ourselves.

We had a canyon battle, for example. narrow battlefield, meant no flanks at all, and as the sides were impassable (and thus impossible to flank on) and the deployment zones being really narrow, while also having lots of difficult terrain, AS WELL AS an increasingly high hill (basically a 20 degree angle all the way from 1 deployment zone to the other). Wood Elves on the high ground, Dwarves on the low.

the dwarves were obliterated. They didn't stand a chance. And this game was 2k wood elves vs 3k dwarves. WEs had 1600 points left after the last turn, Dwarves had 600. It wasn't even close. a turn or two more, and the dwarf player had been tabled.

Some battles just heavily favour specific types of armies, and some more than others. the battle you describe was just far too good for the dwarf compared to you. that's just the name of the game, and not much you can do about it, unfortunately.

I myself find Saurus quite good against the short people. I am a bit against skink clouds myself, though, so call me biased here: But S4T4 with wyssans makes dwarves cry. With support from a light slann, they'll munch through most blocks of dwarves without much trouble, since dwarves really don't hit that hard either. It's basically smashing two hard rocks against each other until one of the breaks, so you do NEED the magic support - But I have never really experienced being locked down completely in any of my magic phases by a dwarf player. Might have something to do with having tons of channel dice that triggers on 5+, but I always have at least 2 dice more than the enemy, and on average, i'd say I probably have 4 to 5 dice more than him, which makes it impossible to stop my magic entirely.

 

[borkbork]

well horrible magic phases happen against every enemy from time to time.

In my last game (vs Orcs) i rolled 5:1, 1:1, 6:5. So in the first two turns i did not really had an advantage (the extra channeling dice also did not help much). And in that last strong magic phase, i miscasted on my first spell (4 dice) and rolled a 3 on the miscast table.

But normally a Slann should not be totally shut down by dwarfs.

And since dwarfs dont have wizards or magical shooting (not 100% sure about this) you could have a blast with an ethereal slann (with high magic --- and swapping a few spells to (perhaps) metal)

 

[n810]

Pretty sure dwarves can upgrade their cannons to have magical attacks (runes).

 

[borkbork]

Pretty sure dwarves can upgrade their cannons to have magical attacks (runes).

yeah, but a rune does not make the shot "magical" automatically, right?
and as far as i know there is no specific rune to make shots magical.

 

[heuningby]

Any attack by a magical item (I.e runes) makes it magical.

 

[SilverFaith]

Any attack by a magical item (I.e runes) makes it magical.

Which basically means that dwarves are the ultimate anti-ethereal army out there. Everything can get runes for pretty much no points, and their effect barely matters if you just want the magical attacks.

Of course, if they don't list tailor for every battle, they might hold back on the runes - BotWD a bitch to kill if everything in their army is magical.

 

[GhostWarrior]

Hey Monders,

A couple of items for you based on the layout of the game you described:

While the game creators don't say it, the sweet spot for this game typically lies in the 2k-3k points range, especially when you talk about the magic phase. Outside that range, you have the opportunity for it to over-effect (<2k) or under-effect (>3k) the game. This is a very general statement I'm making over having played hundreds of games in that 2k-3k range, closer to 50ish @ <2k, and closer to 10-20 @ over 3k - so take it for what you will.

Also, the fact that you and your ally were each playing lists that were individually below 3k (2.4k, right?) vs. an opponent who got the benefit of Grand army rules, and sole control of all his troops, DOES make a difference. It is in no way an insurmountable difference, but when combined with the 3(?) games you say you've played this year with Lizardmen, it does leave you with quite a mountain to climb tactically.

Splitting magic dice also means that the best attack vs. Dwarf Magic Defense (some of the best in the game), is difficult to achieve. You typically need to 5-6 die the most important spell vs. this army, and hope for Irresistible Force. Any good Dwarf player with a solid build will otherwise let unimportant stuff through, and Dispel Rune/Destroy Spell Rune what matters.

I would argue that based on the 2v1 game setup you had, a Slann would have provided little benefit (Tetto'eko on the other hand...).

Most any monster will have a tough time vs. any army with 1+ cannons. I'm surprised the Carno even made it into combat!

In the end, the best advice I can give you is more practice. This game really requires a lot of practice to dial in the best way to utilize a list/army. Lizards are a solid, mid-tier book - and you can win against just about any other army/build out there with enough practice. Don't lose faith!