8th Ed. Ancient stegadon - Engine of the gods

[Lord Tsunami]

So, i am not a huge fan of this thing. I usually take a slann and that is it for my magic. However, i am trying out carnosaur against ogres, and then i cant afford a slann (in 2400 p). hence i decided to include an engine instead. I usually have an ancient stegadon anyway, so it wasnt a huge change. I have seen a few ppl use this guy, and a big issue is his survivability in close combat. I see different talismans and strange items utilized to make him survive just a little bit longer.

I however just gave him the dawnstone. a 2+ rerollable armoursave is very good. its by no means unkillable, but against s3 troops it might as well be. I havent seen any one else use this (though i havent checked very carefully). yes i know that a cannonball in the face will still kill him, but it will do that no matter what you put on him tbh. He will get a wardsave from the engine itself in the early stages of the game (at least), and if you charge the closest available enemy s3 unit, he could be kept alive for the whole battle with some luck

Any one here who uses this guy? with dawnstone or with something else? why?

 

[Coatl]

the only time i normally bring one is if im running my comet list (2 slann with loremaster heavens, tetto and eotg). not that i dont like him, its because running 2 slann usually does plenty for the magic phase and id rather put points into chameleons or sallies.

that being said, i find him very effective when i do bring him, so long as im using him in a counter charge role. typically i keep him out of combat as long as possible, waiting for a good time to run in and get off burning alignment.

i like the idea of giving him the dawnstone, but if your bringing the carni lord wouldnt it be better served on him since he will mostly be targeted more? i think when it comes down to the eotg, and any steg for that matter, you need plenty of things to take care of warmachines and they should be used as flank hammers and deterants. just my thoughts

 

[Arli]

Against Ogres, the only Str 3 models you will see are Gnoblars. Everything else is at least str 4. The key with using a stegadon is the flank charge. You need to hold him back and wait for the target unit to be in combat, then crush his flank. Impact hits for the win. Also, the burning alignment is awesome once you are in combat.

 

[Lord Tsunami]

i would indeed have used the dawnstone on the oldblood is i didnt bring the skink, but the oldblood will simply have to make do with only a 1+ save and 4+ ward. i gave him luckstone just in case too. i figured the skink would need it more with his puny defense

 

[Hinge]

I have been using the Ancient/EoTG to great effect in my tourney list. Since he is my only caster, I give him the Cube for Magic defense. He rarely survives a game but I really only look to stop a critical magic phase and then his role is usually over.

Hinge

 

[Boq]

for the same price u could get...

skink chief with war spear on ancient stegadon with blowpipes

shooting: 2d6 poison shots, 5 javelins

combat (charge) : 2d6+1 str 6 hits THEN 3 str 6 hits THEN d6 str 6 hits

= 3d6+4 str 6 hits- on average 14 str 6 hits at -3 save

Ouch

 

[Agrem]

for the same price u could get...

skink chief with war spear on ancient stegadon with blowpipes

shooting: 2d6 poison shots, 5 javelins

combat (charge) : 2d6+1 str 6 hits THEN 3 str 6 hits THEN d6 str 6 hits

= 3d6+4 str 6 hits- on average 14 str 6 hits at -3 save

Ouch

Your math is a bit off here.

First it takes two skinks to man (...lizardman?) the blowpipes, so that leaves you just 3 javelins or in this case when there is a chief only two if you don't arm the chief.

Second those 3 S6 hits are actually attacks with WS3 so usually hitting on 4+, makes it 1,5 hits on average. This makes it average of 13 hits. Which is actually not that much off bit still. Also you didn't take into consideration the 3 attacks that the chieftain makes with his lance. So +3 WS4 S6 attacks. So 1,5 or 2 more S6 hits. Adds up to grand total of 14,5/15 S6 hits. Which then further translates roughly into 12/12,5 wounds against most of the infantry targets you want to tackle with.


BR
Agrem

 

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

for the same price u could get...

skink chief with war spear on ancient stegadon with blowpipes

shooting: 2d6 poison shots, 5 javelins

combat (charge) : 2d6+1 str 6 hits THEN 3 str 6 hits THEN d6 str 6 hits

= 3d6+4 str 6 hits- on average 14 str 6 hits at -3 save

Ouch

Your math is a bit off here.

First it takes two skinks to man (...lizardman?) the blowpipes, so that leaves you just 3 javelins or in this case when there is a chief only two if you don't arm the chief.

Second those 3 S6 hits are actually attacks with WS3 so usually hitting on 4+, makes it 1,5 hits on average. This makes it average of 13 hits. Which is actually not that much off bit still. Also you didn't take into consideration the 3 attacks that the chieftain makes with his lance. So +3 WS4 S6 attacks. So 1,5 or 2 more S6 hits. Adds up to grand total of 14,5/15 S6 hits. Which then further translates roughly into 12/12,5 wounds against most of the infantry targets you want to tackle with.


BR
Agrem

Dont forget the Thunder Stomp!

 

[Agrem]

I didn't.

2x3,5+1 for impacts, 3x(1/2) for stegadon attacks against WS3 (or more up to WS6), 1x3,5 for thunderstomp and let's say 3x(2/3) for chief attacks against WS3 (or less). Total of 15 S6 hits. Then against opponents with T4 or less 15*(5/6)=12,5 wounds.

BR
Agrem

 

[The Hunted]

But with an spear-'o-don you do not have any casters (as described above).

If you already have a caster; would you rather go with a spear-o-don or an EotG?

If you don't have any casters; which one would you prefer now?

My answer would probably be the EotG to both. Sure the spear-o-don does a crazy amount of wounds, but I trust my saurus units(+buffs) for that. The EotG is a potent caster, good vs knights (something we have quite some trouble against [at least I do]), thunderstomps and is an awesome model to boot!
It also supports the army with it's protective shield for the first few turns of the game.
If redirected, it still does something usefull (I don't consider giant blowpipes usefull...)

The raw power of the spear-o-don is not to be underestimated, but I don't like a unit that simply HAS to get the charge or you lose a great benefit.

As a final question:
Which would you hate the most to see on the opposite side of the field?

The Hunted

Lets steer this discussion back..

 

[Boq]

for the same price u could get...

skink chief with war spear on ancient stegadon with blowpipes

shooting: 2d6 poison shots, 5 javelins

combat (charge) : 2d6+1 str 6 hits THEN 3 str 6 hits THEN d6 str 6 hits

= 3d6+4 str 6 hits- on average 14 str 6 hits at -3 save

Ouch

Your math is a bit off here.

First it takes two skinks to man (...lizardman?) the blowpipes, so that leaves you just 3 javelins or in this case when there is a chief only two if you don't arm the chief.

Second those 3 S6 hits are actually attacks with WS3 so usually hitting on 4+, makes it 1,5 hits on average. This makes it average of 13 hits. Which is actually not that much off bit still. Also you didn't take into consideration the 3 attacks that the chieftain makes with his lance. So +3 WS4 S6 attacks. So 1,5 or 2 more S6 hits. Adds up to grand total of 14,5/15 S6 hits. Which then further translates roughly into 12/12,5 wounds against most of the infantry targets you want to tackle with.


BR
Agrem

actually i forgot to put the steggie attacks in

 

[Lord Tsunami]

A skink chief cant "replace" the EotG, because he isnt a wizard. The whole point of the EotG is the fact that there is a priest on top of it. If you arent using a slann you need another caster (or several). the idea is that with the EotG you can get by with a single priest and still have a pretty solid magic phase (3 spells with +3 to cast and dispell is very close to what a single lvl 4 (not a slann) could manage.)

With the EotG i can happily play a carnosaur and still have a decent magic phase. I can even feel like the skink is reasonably safe.

 

[Agrem]

I actually wouldn't take the chief or the eotg. The resoning behind this is because I think the skink character is just too easy to pop even without cannons. The 2+ asv just don't help with low WS and T. On the question which I would prefer/hate to play against. I think the eotg would be more annoying to face. I don't think neither will posses so much trouble.

Also if I'm not completely mistaken you only get 2 spells with eotg but +3 to cast. So you would need the plaque. Which would then mean that you are not able to get scroll. With carnosaur I would much rather built the army offensive and with one or two priests on foot with defensive magic gear. Then invest in scar-veterans.

BR
Agrem

 

[Lord Tsunami]

the priest i was talking about was the one i mentioned in the OP, with plaque of tepok and dawnstone

 

[Taipan]

Look, the Level 1/2 Priest on top is nice, but Heavens magic is nothing special. Sure, if you roll up some good spells, don't forget to cast then, but your Slann are always your primary choice for mages. Level 4 default, insane abilities, and a bunker few can match.

The real reasons you take EOTG are threefold.
Firstly, he lives in Heroes, so he's not eating up Rare allowance (for people who wanna spam Salamanders). Secondly, 'Burning Alignment' is hilarious once your phalanx is engaged (it can swing combats with a few well-placed kills), and 'Portent of Warding' is pretty damn good (only a 5+, but when that bubble is covering most of your army, enemy fire starts to weaken considerably).
Thirdly, he can be used as a counter-charge and mage, although he's not the best option in either case. Casting 'Speed of Light' in AOE form from your Slann (which you'll want anyway, to make TG and Saurus actually strike first against something) will turn your EOTG into a brutal killing machine. 'Timewarp' AOE turns him into a nightmare (6 x S6 ASF attacks at WS10, tack on Impact Hits and Thunderstomp). Likewise, if you've already hit a unit with 'Miasma' or 'Enfeeble' from a Shadow Slann, the 'Iceshard' or 'Midnight Wind' spells from Heavens can be pretty brutal ('Wind' essentially prevents Killing Blow from ever working).

 

[Lord Tsunami]

you touched on the whole point in your post but still seem to miss it totally. the reason to bring EotG is when you want an old blood on carnosaur as general, so you can not take a slann. ofc he isnt as good as a slann, nothing is, but he can still ensure that you have a precence in the magic phase while dominating the CC phase (with the carnosaur)

 

[Taipan]

you touched on the whole point in your post but still seem to miss it totally.

Wut

the reason to bring EotG is when you want an old blood on carnosaur as general, so you can not take a slann.

That makes no sense at all. You can fit in an EOTG regardless of what you're taking as a Lord choice. In fact, you should always be able to, because the only other worthwhile options in Heroes are cheap Scar-Vets and Priests for arcane item (ie scroll) caddies.

As to whether an Old Blood on Carnosaur is a better choice than a Slann, the answer is no. If you're that keen on an Old-Blood, take him on foot. He's still going to be expensive, but you can at least fit him in next to the Slann. If they manage to fix monsters, magic and artillery in the next edition (ie balance them against eachother), then yeah maybe. Until then, enjoy getting 'Pitted', 'Dwellers' or 'Purple Sunned' to hell, or have cannons tear it apart before you make their lines.

ofc he isnt as good as a slann, nothing is, but he can still ensure that you have a precence in the magic phase while dominating the CC phase (with the carnosaur)

Presence? He's a Level 2 at best (after an expensive upgrade), and even with +3 in total on his castings and dispels, he's not even registering on the map of 'things to care about', because Heavens is pretty meh overall. SoM changes this ('Fantastic Foresight' is broken beyond words), but regardless, you need the Slann.

 

[Pyre]

Going to Carnosaur route, I would skip the EotG and go with a pair of normal little skink priests. Either give one a scroll and the other the Cub, or go with the Staff of Sorcery and the other the Diadem of power. The first set-up lets you kill two spells and throw a ton of dice at the rest, the second is a little more sustainable and gives you more dice and at least a +3 to dispel.

Regardless since you're going to be looking at getting into combat RIGHT NOW, you'll really only need to worry about one or two buffs from the enemy each turn after the first (or second at latest). That's why I think the EotG is overkill in this aspect. Why spend all those points on a "magic boost" that will rarely turn the tide, if ever? Use the points for more scar vets on cold ones or a few skink chiefs on terradons to go mage hunting. I mean if you're still dispeling lots of stuff/haven't eaten a couple of mages by turn three, you're probably already out of luck.



Pyre

 

[n810]

The reason weather or not to take an EotG is not the Skink Priest, but the engine itself,
the 5+ wardsave shield and burining alignment in peticular. these abilites are not
cast and go off automaticly at the begining of the magic phase. also a anchent stegadon
is still fairly hard to kill if you played him right and tke out the cannons and shadow mages first.

 

[Pyre]

I'm just not seeing the return from that kind of an investment that makes it worth while. Yes there's Alignment hits and the 5+ ward save, but the ward's only versus shooting and then only shooting at longer ranges. A Carnosaur led list is going to get real close real fast. Now admittedly, with the Carnosaur running around you'll want to take out warmachines and shadow mages anyway so that's not a mark against the EotG. However as someone said before, the skink chief with spear of "HOW MANY IMPACT HITS?!" is likely to compliment the Carnosaur lord better. Spending hero points on other heroes means you have more maneuver options.

Also, in a way, the EotG is too slow. Its only move 6 without Swiftstride, meaning the Carnosaur and any accompanying CoC (or whatever fast units are accompanying it) are going to leave it behind pretty quickly.

All this could also depend on the local meta-game. Gun lines could actually make the EotG more valuable, since the 5+ ward makes the enemy have to concentrate on either the EotG or the Carnosaur. Spreading fire could result in both getting through, and that's a dead gunline. Knight heavy lists would hate the EotG, as several people have said, but there are so few knight heavy armies in 8th that I'm not sure that's a selling point.



Pyre