7th Ed. A Case for Javelins.

[novatomato]

As I was writing up a list for an upcoming tournament I found I had a bit over ten points to spend after I put in everything I wanted, so I began scouring my list for things I could add in. I decided on upgrading a single unit of Skirmishers to Jav + Shield.
Why would someone be crazy enough to do this? Well, let me break down the pros and cons as I see them for both types.
Pipers;
Pros: 2x shot, 12' range, 7 points.
Cons: Strength 2, Modifiable BS means that there will arise situations where the skinks can NOT double tap (multi shoot).

Jav+Shield;
Pros: Strength 3, no penalties for shooting at range or move and shoot 6+ AS, 5+ AS in CC
Cons: 8" Range, Fewer shots.

Now a lot of these points people will think 'so what, thats pretty much pointless'. Let me break down a few things.
2x shots, versus S3 shots. Assuming 8" range for both, no movement before shooting and on a normal sized target 4+ AS T3, and ten skinks.
Pipes. 2x shots equals -1 long range, -1 multiple shots. hitting on sixes equals 3.33 hits all poison, this becomes 1.666 wounds after AS.
Javs equals hitting on fours. 5 hits, 1.666 poison + 1.666 regular wounds. Which becomes 1.666 after AS.

The same. So what you ask. Well lets factor in moving into the equation.
Pipes. -1 for moving, -1 for long range, -1 for 2x Ooops hitting on sevens lets go back to regular shots.
hitting on sixes equals 1.666 wounds equals 0.833 after AS.
Javs. same as before.
In this scenario javs are better.
'Oh well that was not an optimal target' well yes I'll give you that but then again not every game will result in skinks getting matched against optimal targets all the time. Lets move on to another point.

Charging. Yes this is not optimal use of skinks again, but bear with me.
In this hypothetical example we'll say a unit of T3 S3 WS3 4+ AS with full command are going to charge right into the flank of a saurus unit that is in prolonged CC with some tough cookies, the flank charge will eradicate them because of Static res and the odd wound. You could shoot the unit or you could charge it holding it up for a turn or two letting the saurus grind out the battle.
Assuming a four rank unit and ten skinks, meaning six skinks are fighting.
Pipes. Charge 3 hits equals 1.5 wounds equals 0.75 kills. Baddies attack back, assuming hand weapons, 3 attacks back, 2 hits 1.333 wounds. The enemy unit wins combat by a fair margin, the skinks are probably going to be running.
Jav + Shield. Same as above, 0.75 wounds. enemy attacks back, causing only 0.888 wounds. not really that much of a difference but the Jav + Shield has a significantly increased chance to hold the enemy for at least one round.

Now with these thoughts I have come to the conclusion that Jav and Shield skirmishers are still a viable option to take ALONG side regular skirmishers. The regular skirmishers are excellent, no doubt about that, but leave them for taking out the large targets because really without the +1 to hit against large targets the Javs have the same chance to poison units and have a much greater chance of getting regular wounds off as well as some reliability against other less impressive CC units in CC.
For a single point a piece I think it a worthwhile investment.

Sorry for the long post, thanks to those who stuck with it.

novatomato.

 

[kroxigor01]

Blowpipes have strength 3. But that's doens't matter, poison is the only reason either are any good, and blowpipes fire more shots to poison with.

 

[walach]

honestly what does it for me is that for skirmishers, javelins are an extra point over blowpipes, and for a unit that as often as not gets used for fleeing/baiting/dying rather than shooting, why would i want to make them more expensive?

if you want a couple of javelins to throw about, look on top of the stegadons or terradons imo

 

[strewart]

honestly what does it for me is that for skirmishers, javelins are an extra point over blowpipes, and for a unit that as often as not gets used for fleeing/baiting/dying rather than shooting, why would i want to make them more expensive?

if you want a couple of javelins to throw about, look on top of the stegadons or terradons imo

Seconded. You are trying hard to squeeze the final most effective percentage out of the unit, and it may well turn out that javelins are a few percent more effective than blowpipes but remember you describe niche situations where they are slightly better, and since they cost more points they damn well should be better. I think skink skirmishers are meant to be a cheap throwaway unit so I want them to be as cheap as possible not a tiny bit more effective for more points that could go elsewhere.

 

[Bibamus]

also, most infrantry in the game has M4 or M5. pipes at long range can fire safely from the units front even only 1 shot and be out of charge range. javelins will get charged by any unit in the game barring unlucky chaos spawns and some other random movement units.
also, for javelins you have to move 4" closer, wich may mean 1 turn less of shooting when you can shoot only once with the pipes, more kills again.
last but not least if you areu sing buildings on the table, as i usualy am, the 4" difference is a lot when it comes to whats in range.

 

[novatomato]

Blowpipes have strength 3

somehow I missed that, thank you. It doesn't change much as with blowpipes we usually have to hit on 6's anyways so rolling to wound is a moot point.

most infrantry in the game has M4 or M5

that is true but skinks are M6 AND skirmish, so they should only be in LOS and chargeable if that is what they need to be, ie baiting.

@Strewart and Walach, yes they do cost a point more and as such are less cheap than other skinks, but if you take a look at most of the army lists people are making they have three or four units of skinks, surely that is a lot of cheap throwaway fleeing/baiting/dying, why not invest ten points in one of those units and diversify your abilities? Additionally, if you really want those blowpipe shots, why not get the Chameleon skinks, they have a better BS so they will get more hits, they are harder to hit with shooting, plus they scout so they can start taking out the biggies on turn 1.

Now I myself am not convinced that these are the truly better option, but I still think they are worthwhile. As such I will be testing them out regularly over the next couple of weeks and perhaps even in the upcoming tournament. Maybe I will find that they are the most broken unit ever, maybe I will find they are the worst unit ever, only play testing will tell. With that I ask you to perhaps even try them out yourselves.

Once again, thanks to those who stuck through the whole thing.

 

[KonektFor]

Javelins have their main strength with the ability to move and shoot I mean, you'll wreck and shortrange dwarf player(Yes none gunline dwarves exist) but Blowpipes win for the sheer amount of dice you roll, you can afford to lose a couple skinks with blowpipes and still far out roll then you would with Javelins.

 

[Caneghem]

I ran some numbers a while back and found that in most normal scenarios, javelins are better vs T3 and lower, same as blowpipes vs T4, and blowpipes get better and better with toughness 5 and up. So each has a niche where it is optimized, but after all is said and done, just get some of each type. Your ranked up skinks can take potshots with javelins at fast cav and other support type units (which tend to be T3), and especially skirmishers (which blowpipes have a hard time hitting). Your blowpipers can shoot anything really, but are optimal against the toughest things in the opponent's army. These are usually the big monsters that hang around the flanks and are at least toughness 5 (often large targets too).

The javelin skirmishers might work in skirmish themed armies, but for the most part I'd say take skinks of both types, with their starting equipment.

 

[skinker]

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