8th Ed. 3K list to face the ogre gutstar

[Dethail]

Ok so im playing a prearranged game agaist a skilled ogre player.

his list in a nutshell
gutstar
ironguts x14 full cmd, stanard of disipline
slaughtermaster, lvl 4 (maw) hellheart, stubborn hat, opal amulet
bruiser bsb, rune maw, heavy armor, fist
probably a ogre 6pack
4 mornfang full cmd armor and fists
2x 3 leadbelchers
3x 1 saber tusks
2 iron blasters
1 thundertusk
also probablysome other odds and ends but thats basically it.

ok so my list
slan; bsb, mystery, becalm, rumination, cupped hands, plaque of protection, sun standard

oldblood with slann in tg; shield, piranha blade, glittering scales, banehead, luck stone.

skink chief; ancient steg, warspear, javelin

skink priest; lvl 1, cube of darkness

2 x10 skink skirmishers
24 skink cohorts, full cmd, 3 kroxigors
25 saurus warriors; full cmd
ancient stegadon
stegadon
20 temple guard; full cmd, standard of disipline
5 chameleon skinks; stalker
5 chameleon skinks

So what lore? his gutstar is essentially immuneto spells so life, light?
I cant wait for that *&^*ing hellheart to backfireon him

so ideas suggestions?

 

[Scalenex]

Perhaps Shadow. Okkam's Mindrazor is better now that we got a new FAQ so the general's Leadership can be used. If he dispels Mindrazor you can still hex the deathstars, WS, Toughness, or Strength. The bigger a unit is, the more valuable a single unit hex can become.

I never tried a three Steggy list. I think you have the right idea. If you are facing cannons you either want lots of Stegadons or no Stegadons. I normally prefer my Saurus blocks to be bigger but if you coordinate your Stegadons with them they should do okay. I think without life, 20 Temple Guard is not enough in a 3000 point game. If you feel comfortable trimming points elsewhere, I'd aim for around 30 Temple Guard. If you lose the Slann, you lose everything. If your opponent knows what he's doing, he is going to prioritize his cannons against your Skink Chief then the Ancient Stegadon. Consider dropping your Ancient Stegadons in him favor of taking three Stegadons. That'll free up lots of points to make your units bigger.

The Slann has a Look Out Sir, the Plaque of Protection is not worth 30 points, use them to buy more Temple Guard or get a talisman that bestows MR to protect your entire Temple Guard unit from spells.

If you can put more than 24 Skinks in your Skrox block I'd recommend that too.

 

[skillfull_dan]

If he runs a banner of the rune maw ( wont allow you to cast on his deathstar) you will need to switch to a buff based lore like life. Normally Shadow or metal are ideal, but the banner of the rune maw is really annoying. Alternatively Death is a fantastic choice because vortexes do not require you to pick a target, so purple sun of xereus will cut through his deathstar like a knife through butter.

So stegadons are a gamble when facing cannons, just make sure you deploy them next to your engine of the gods otherwise they will be ironblasted turn 1.

Besides that, 4 stegadons doesnt leave much room for change. I would recommend another unit of skirmishers or terradons would be better if you have them since you will probably need to redirect a few charges.

 

[Stonecutter]

The gutstar is actually not all that big for a 3K battle - I have seen 20+ gutstars though so I might be biased! I think Scalenex has covered most of the key points. Here are a few ideas to consider:

1) replace the warspear steggie with 2 x scarvet cowboys - one with charmed shield and the other with amulet of itzl. They can go after the ironblasters, leadbelchers & mournfangs. Just take care not to expose them to a grapeshot attack since ironblasters have S10 grape shot. The easiest way to do this is to attach them to another unit like skrox or saurus although the latter will really slow them down.

2) go with a 2nd skrox block vice saurus - against ogres, both die on 2's to wound and skinks are much cheaper and the unit cannot be stomped.

3) Old blood - For the points, these would be far better spent on more TG, upgraded steggie, or just about anywhere else IMHO. Just using some of the points to horde up the TG would add 10 x S5 attacks and a lot more room for casualties while still leaving many points to spend elsewhere.

4) Sun standard - not a big issue against ogres since only the leadbelchers are affected and the TG can be given hard cover by the skirmishers.

5) You can't go wrong with skinks - With the leftover sun standard, warspear & OB points, it should be possible to field a 3rd unit of skirmishers, upgrade to a 2nd ancient steggie and beef up the scouts to 8 each. Apart from the mournfangs, ogres are vulnerable to shooting and this mix would provide 100+ potential shots per turn of poison - quantity has a quality all its own.

 

[Dethail]

my thought with the plague of protection is to prevent sniping from the two cannons however I do see your point about the Los, what about the sun standard is it worth the points?
Also there is only 3 stegadons; a standard, an ancient and a ancient ridden by a chief.

 

[Dethail]

Stonecutter I saw your reply after I responded the first time thanks for the specific feedback. I dropped the chief and picked two cow boys from this site that hit hard to drop the monsters / iron blasters. I also dropped some grear from the slann and enlarged some units.
The old blood however I was looking at some mathhammer and he should be able to drop the slaughter master in one turn effectively neutering the gutstar.

So here is try #2

Lizard vs ogre 3k (2996pts)

Selections:

Lizardmen 7th Ed (2009) (Standard) Selections:

+ Lords + (686pts)

* Saurus Oldblood (231pts)
Bane Head, Glittering Scales, Luckstone, Piranha Blade, Shield


* Slann Mage-Priest (455pts)
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones, Focus of Mystery, The Becalming Cogitation, Focused Rumination
* Battle Standard Bearer
Banner of Eternal Flame


+ Heroes + (404pts)

* Saurus Scar Veteran (136pts)
Cold One , Dragon Helm, Great Weapon, Light Armour, Venom of the Firefly Frog


* Saurus Scar Veteran (163pts)
Charmed Shield (5pts), Cold One, Dawnstone, Light Armour, Shield, Sword of Might


* Skink Priest (105pts)
Cube of Darkness, Hand Weapon


+ Core + (757pts)

* Saurus Warriors (305pts)
Champion, Musician, 25x Saurus Warrior, Standard Bearer


* Skink Skirmishers ()
10x Skink Skirmisher )


* Skink Skirmishers (pts)
10x Skink Skirmisher ()


* Skinks (312pts)
3x Kroxigor (), Musician (), 24x Skink (), Skink Brave (), Standard Bearer ()


+ Special + (599pts)

* Chameleon Skinks (90pts)
7x Chameleon (), Stalker ()


* Chameleon Skinks ()
8x Chameleon ()


* Temple Guard (413pts)
Musician (), Standard Bearer standard of discipline 23x Temple Guard ()
* Revered Guardian ()



+ Rare + ()

* Ancient Stegadon ()


* Ancient Stegadon ()



Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

 

[Stonecutter]

2nd list looks better and the cowboys should help the steggies survive a little longer (or vice versa) while also providing more flexibility. With regard to the OB, it is extremely unlikely that he will be able to drop the slaughtermaster in a single round or even over several rounds. Most ogre players kit their slaughtermaster with fencer's blades, glittering scales & 4+ ward or a combination of those items - at 3K points level he can definitely afford to bring a butcher to carry the hellheart. Also, IIRC, the ogre lore attribute is similar to the lore of life in that the wizard can recover wounds. For this reason, if you are really keen on keeping the OB, he is likely better off going after rank & file and then the BSB. With this in mind, here is a combo once the TG are in combat against the gutstar that will surprise your opponent since he will be expecting you to try and avoid that unit:

1) Kit the OB with sword of anti-heroes, dawnstone and some type of armour to give a 1+ save. There are likely to be 3 characters in the gutstar (general, bsb, support wizard). Even with only 2 characters, this means the OB will be dishing out 7 x S7 attacks per round. This turns out to be cheaper than the current OB build
and can be made cheaper yet if you take higher risk by using luckstone vice dawnstone (your cowboy might need it even more!!).

2) Usually, ogre players will wait until combat is imminent or occurring before dropping the hellheart, thereby depriving you of a magic phase (even if it is bounced, it will suck power dice) and the ability to buff your unit. By keeping the OB on the corner of your own unit & with the dawnstone, he should survive the 6 x S6 attacks directed his way.

3) Horde o' TG - Ogres are one of the few armies where TG can really excel in combat since they will hit on 3s and wound on 3s. This means the average TG horde can dish out 36 attacks and an average of 16 wounds per phase - enough to kill 5+ ironguts! If the TG are going to get into combat early (so the OB can earn his points), the unit must be able to go into horde effectively IMHO and grind it out without buffs for at least a full turn. This requires minimum 25+ TG (slaan & OB fill 5 spots and I imagine the cowboys will be off elsewhere). It would even be worth it to drop the scouts back down to 5 each and use the saved OB points in order to get 4-5 more TG.

Any which way, looks like you it will be a fun battle so good luck and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Dethail]

His build for the slaughter master is always the same, he'll heart, stubborn hat, opal amulet, always every time. He also normally throws the 2nd cater with the 6 pack

 

[newscales]

Bane head is only good if you can actually get into combat with your called shot target. I'd trade those points and upgrade the luckstone to the dawnstone.

 

[Stonecutter]

His build for the slaughter master is always the same, he'll heart, stubborn hat, opal amulet, always every time. He also normally throws the 2nd cater with the 6 pack

If your opponent is this predictable then the piranha blade/bane head combo definitely offers good potential. Just make sure you position the old blood when moving so that he is always set up to be in contact with the slaughtermaster when the units are in combat.

 

[Dethail]

So I haven't heard much about lore other than either life or light. Now that the tg are bigger I'm thinking light, going for the area of effect spells should effect my whole battle line.

This player is very efficient in dispelling between the hell heart, a scroll I often only get 0-1 spells off. However I have never faced him with my Lizard men before so we will see

 

[Stonecutter]

With the exception of dwellers (which is horrendous for ogres ), life is all about defence. I think light offers some really low casting values (minimizing risk of IF/miscast) and excellent buffs that will really help get the most out of your troops. Against ogres the buffs are even better since WS 10 coupled with pha's protection means they will be hitting you on 6's in combat. Between the two, I like light as it is friendlier and more fun to play with.