7th Ed. 2k 7th ed list, combat heavy

[strewart]

I have no idea how this will work... It is a very combat heavy list, I won't put any points values or equipment since the book isn't out yet and people won't know what I'm talking about, just a general 'how might it go' list. I'm not sure if it is a silly idea to use an engine of the gods skink as a scroll cady yet, but the EotG can't be dispelled so I think it could work.

Old blood on Carnosaur
(the old blood will have a 2+ armour save and a whopping 8 s5 attacks, 9 after he inflicts his first wound and frenzy, along with the carnosaur's frenzy after it's first wound of course. Interestingly and I haven't seen this mentioned, a carnosaur no longer appears to take an extra hero choice)

Skink chief, BSB, stegadon
(Point sink and fire magnet, yes. He will have the lance for 2d6 impact hits)

Skink priest, 2 scrolls, ancient steg with EotG

20 Saurus, full command

10 skink skirmishers

10 skink skirmishers

20 Temple Guard, full command



.... That is all. 2000 points exactly. There was so much more that I wanted to put in, but the points added up so quickly. The idea is that the engine will provide a ward save while my army marches, then combat support and its destructive power while my army gets into combat. My combat potential is insane if enough reaches the enemy lines, and I have some support from the skinks.

If it doesn't work.... I might have to lower the Temple Guard (or drop them completely) and reduce the engine to a normal steg to get points for other things... I think my army will quickly find itself reaching for 3000 points, which I used to play often with my opponents. Or maybe 2500. Then I could add more saurus and some cold ones.

 

[Dalkarius]

I have no idea how this will work... It is a very combat heavy list, I won't put any points values or equipment since the book isn't out yet and people won't know what I'm talking about, just a general 'how might it go' list. I'm not sure if it is a silly idea to use an engine of the gods skink as a scroll cady yet, but the EotG can't be dispelled so I think it could work.

Old blood on Carnosaur
(the old blood will have a 2+ armour save and a whopping 8 s5 attacks, 9 after he inflicts his first wound and frenzy, along with the carnosaur's frenzy after it's first wound of course. Interestingly and I haven't seen this mentioned, a carnosaur no longer appears to take an extra hero choice)

An excellent observation that reminded me. None, that;s right, NONE of the Lizardmen mounts take any kind of choice, only points. I've seen the book and asked the GW guys about it and they told me the new Carnosaur, terradon, cold one, steggy mounts do not take any choices. Scary, huh?

 

[Gannon]

I do realise that the new lizzie book is ment for us to make a more Combat related list.

But the thing that pops up in my mind when I see this:

2k points, 6 units? almost no magical defence ? 2 blocks of 20 M4 troops?

As you say u want your battle line to go to the enemy together.
Than your steggy will also move an 8" march ? carnosaur too?

This will have the same problems as any other slow moving combat list.
Shooting, heavy magic, Sure u'll have a 5+ wardsave... but its still just a 5+...
U'll be outnumbered by lot of other races.. outmanouvered by cav armies..

Could be me that doesn't see much use for heavy combat armies.. cuz they never won vs my playstyle and I don't like the way such lists work.. just send all to the enemy and trow some dice to see who kills more..
it's pitty GW now makes us a Combat Race... cuz I loved the shooting and magic power lizzies had..
We still have some but its both seriously nerfed..
Bybye skink scouts... auto hit sallies.. over the top second gen slann ;(

 

[strewart]

Yeah it is lower in numbers than my HE combat lists, and they still managed 2 bolt throwers... Still, if you wanted a true combat list you would remove the engine of the gods and save 300 points or so, but only 2 ranked combat units is pathetic. I don't know how I might run an army now that I have seen how little I have at 2k, I will have to play around with lists I think. It is sad, the carnosaur and stegadons are what drew me to lizardmen and they are the most expensive and probably unweildy things.

In my experience, a single scroll cady (and remember, the ward save will work against magic missiles too) is enough to weather the worst of enemy magic until you reach combat, it is all I ever took with my elves and they are much easier to kill, and have been beating magic heavy VC lately. You must remember that as well as the 5+ ward, the minimum armour save is 4+, and the minimum toughness is 4 (not counting skinks), which makes the army very tough. Or it seems very tough when I am used to 5+ armour, t3 armies.

I am scared that the lizardmen will be more fragile due to low numbers though.. Probably against shooting or magic armies the carnosaur and stegadon will launch ahead of the main batle line to try to quell some of the shooting. I am quite confident the carnosaur and old blood could take on whole ranked units itself.

 

[Gannon]

No hero can ever singlehandedly destroy an full Command unit in the front..
Oldblood on carnosaur would have to do 5 wounds to be equal and 6 if it wants to win... musician..
Oldblood with 5 attacks... does maybe 2-3 kills ? and carno with the low WS... does maybe again 2-3max wounds

Even a Bloodthirster won't win vs a FC unit in the front... he can't do 6 wounds.. or opponent needs to roll really good...

ranks.. +3 banner +1 (maybe warbanner +1) outnumber +1 = +5 and they got a musician so he wins so u need 6 wounds to win combat by -1 for their ldship...

means that it is tricky to send your carno lord in the front of an enemy FC unit... probably next turn You get massive side charges from other units and your carno lord is dead...

It's something else if you can get a side charge with him, than he can kill a FC unit with ease... but its not so easy to do that tho...

 

[no1cafe]

Gannon there are some that can take on a fully ranked unit, a vampire lord with red fury and dreadlance on a dragon can easily cause 6-8 wounds plus the dragons wounds.

Strewart that list looks very small, I think you should drop the Temple Guard for some normal Saurus with spears as they are cheaper and not much less effective since you are paying too much for temple guard if you don't take the slann as it's the stubborn and immune to psychology that drives the points for the temple guard up. This will free up 85pts to play with and with some shuffling around you may be able to fit some of the things that you wanted to put in>

 

[Gannon]

Gannon there are some that can take on a fully ranked unit, a vampire lord with red fury and dreadlance on a dragon can easily cause 6-8 wounds plus the dragons wounds.

Strewart that list looks very small, I think you should drop the Temple Guard for some normal Saurus with spears as they are cheaper and not much less effective since you are paying too much for temple guard if you don't take the slann as it's the stubborn and immune to psychology that drives the points for the temple guard up. This will free up 85pts to play with and with some shuffling around you may be able to fit some of the things that you wanted to put in>

What vampire player would be "dumb" enough to send his lord (if he dies he's lost) on himself toward an enemy... if by any chance that block holds the charge... we could.. -4 ld can be done with coldblooded.. he gets side charged, owned and his entire army crumbles...

Sure there are certain heroes with certain build that can take on fully ranked units.. but those are rare and not advisable to go on their own without backup... that is what he means... sending out the carno and steg infront of the M4 inf isn't a reliable strategy...

 

[Dalkarius]

No hero can ever singlehandedly destroy an full Command unit in the front..
Oldblood on carnosaur would have to do 5 wounds to be equal and 6 if it wants to win... musician..
Oldblood with 5 attacks... does maybe 2-3 kills ? and carno with the low WS... does maybe again 2-3max wounds

Even a Bloodthirster won't win vs a FC unit in the front... he can't do 6 wounds.. or opponent needs to roll really good...

ranks.. +3 banner +1 (maybe warbanner +1) outnumber +1 = +5 and they got a musician so he wins so u need 6 wounds to win combat by -1 for their ldship...

means that it is tricky to send your carno lord in the front of an enemy FC unit... probably next turn You get massive side charges from other units and your carno lord is dead...

It's something else if you can get a side charge with him, than he can kill a FC unit with ease... but its not so easy to do that tho...

I quite honestly disagree. I've seen plenty of single Lords on monsters completely annihilate units. I watched Star Dragons and Greaer Daemons of Khorne gobble down plenty of FC ranked units. I myself have used a Carnosaur once or twice to blast through HE and O&G battlelines. It's not completely impossible by any means, also considering that the Lord will usually hold and also keep in mind we cause Terror, and anyone that fails the Leadership test doesn't just not make their charge, the turn and take off in the opposite direction. A Terror causing, Frenzied Oldblood correctly equipped on a Carnosaur is MORE then capable of ripping through anything but the most hardy of units. Also, even if they do lose combat res, it's usually not by much and our Cold-blooded rule keeps us in, and the unit we've fought has lost at least one, maybe two ranks and by the end of the next combat phase the Carnosaur might outnumber them and send their asses running.

Of course, you could always use a Ancient or regular stegadon to smash units with impact hits, especially with the crazy Chief adding on more impact hits.

 

[no1cafe]

What vampire player would be "dumb" enough to send his lord (if he dies he's lost) on himself toward an enemy... if by any chance that block holds the charge... we could.. -4 ld can be done with coldblooded.. he gets side charged, owned and his entire army crumbles...

Sure there are certain heroes with certain build that can take on fully ranked units.. but those are rare and not advisable to go on their own without backup... that is what he means... sending out the carno and steg infront of the M4 inf isn't a reliable strategy...

Well yes the unit the Vampire just mauled may hold but with the ability to fly the only target will be an isolated one without support so it wouldn't matter, you said 'No hero can ever singlehandedly destroy an full Command unit in the front' which is not true. I'm sure strewart isn't foolish enough to throw the carnosaur into any old combat, if there is an opportunity an oldblood on a carnosaur is certainly capable of taking out a fully ranked unit, even if it takes a few combats as remember after each combat it is likely that the enemy will have one less rank.

 

[strewart]

No hero can ever singlehandedly destroy an full Command unit in the front..
Oldblood on carnosaur would have to do 5 wounds to be equal and 6 if it wants to win... musician..
Oldblood with 5 attacks... does maybe 2-3 kills ? and carno with the low WS... does maybe again 2-3max wounds

You missed part of my first post.

the old blood will have a 2+ armour save and a whopping 8 s5 attacks, 9 after he inflicts his first wound and frenzy, along with the carnosaur's frenzy after it's first wound of course

Do your theory again with that many attacks and see how well the unit is faring...

 

[Dalkarius]

No hero can ever singlehandedly destroy an full Command unit in the front..
Oldblood on carnosaur would have to do 5 wounds to be equal and 6 if it wants to win... musician..
Oldblood with 5 attacks... does maybe 2-3 kills ? and carno with the low WS... does maybe again 2-3max wounds

You missed part of my first post.

the old blood will have a 2+ armour save and a whopping 8 s5 attacks, 9 after he inflicts his first wound and frenzy, along with the carnosaur's frenzy after it's first wound of course

Do your theory again with that many attacks and see how well the unit is faring...

Amen to that! lol

 

[Gannon]

No hero can ever singlehandedly destroy an full Command unit in the front..
Oldblood on carnosaur would have to do 5 wounds to be equal and 6 if it wants to win... musician..
Oldblood with 5 attacks... does maybe 2-3 kills ? and carno with the low WS... does maybe again 2-3max wounds

You missed part of my first post.

the old blood will have a 2+ armour save and a whopping 8 s5 attacks, 9 after he inflicts his first wound and frenzy, along with the carnosaur's frenzy after it's first wound of course

Do your theory again with that many attacks and see how well the unit is faring...

Depends on what you're attacking xD
VC zombie skellie block.. Tomb kings..Daemon Block.. HE block.. Warriors of Chaos block?
Any elite troop with a decent armorsave as S5 isn't really that whooping. Doesn't leave much left for your carnosaur to kill.. sure empire state troops or spearmen.. Even if you attack DE spearmen you got lots of chance an assasin pops out and Killing blows your general..

I've had my carnosaur charge a block of VC skellies before..
(I had 6 S5 attacks with a -4 arm save for the enemy)
they just held and next turn a pritty vampire with 4 tomb guards left flanked him and 1 TG just killing blowed him... (I failed my ward save..)
But who am I to talk.. I nearly never used my Carnosaur lord anyway as I found out a Slann was much more usefull and could be more destructive than a carno lord.
But I still think it's best to flank an enemy block with your hero.. as attacking their front just asks for trouble...

 

[strewart]

So now that the book has been out for a couple of weeks, and I have properly looked at my list, I have made a few possible changes. I am torn, I think an engine should go in a magic heavy army (though really, it isn't a bound item and can't be dispelled, so still works), yet its ward can give my army good protection. See what you think of V2, I have indicated changes in red.

Old blood on Carnosaur
(the old blood will have a 2+ armour save and a whopping 8 s5 attacks, 9 after he inflicts his first wound and frenzy, along with the carnosaur's frenzy after it's first wound of course. Interestingly and I haven't seen this mentioned, a carnosaur no longer appears to take an extra hero choice)

Got rid of the chief, kept the stegadon. stegadon
(Point sink and fire magnet, yes. He will have the lance for 2d6 impact hits)

Skink priest, 2 scrolls, Got rid of the engine, he is a scroll cady on foot now

20 Saurus, full command

10 skink Neither unit are skirmishers now, to save points. I think they will still make good flankers and serve their role
10 skink

18 Temple Guard, full commandreduced to 18 and added the Warbanner. It was a tough choice between reducing these guys and the spear saurus. I figured these ones would hit harder in combat.

5 Cold One Knights. I wanted to add a unit of them because they look cool and hit hard but didn't have the points before. Just a small flanking unit

Ancient Steg. Replacement for the engine, bit cheaper.

So in the new list I have lost the powers of the engine while gaining the giant blowpipes. The other stegadon also took a hit, losing his chief and the army BSB, should still hit hard. In exchange, the Temple Guard have a wider frontage for more attacks and the same static combat res, and I have an added unit of quite hard flankers in the knights. What do you think? Both quite appeal to me.

 

[Caneghem]

I think one thing that helps in busting big blocks with the Carno is overkill. Just challenge and you may find your opponent thinks, "Oh, this will let me save rank and file". The Carnosaur, however, does d3 wounds per unsaved wound. Combined with the Lord on his back, you have a pretty good shot of maxing out the overkill and giving yourself +6 CR (you could do it with merely two hits from the Carno). This just barely beats three ranks, standard, and outnumber.

This will be especially effective against the new chaos, who must declare challenges. Their units also tend not to be as large due to the point cost. The carno will struggle with the Mark of Nurgle though, which will reduce its weapon skill to 2. Just roast Nurglings with burning alignment.

 

[strewart]

Yeah if you are sure the carno will strike first, and kill, and not get hurt in return... You need to not receive a wound in return to win, if they even get 1 in the challenge you lose due to a musician.

Anyway, I just checked page 79 of the BRB and confirmed that Frenzy passes from rider to mount or mount to rider, so the carnosaur pendant is useless on my leader. The carno can give him frenzy for free. Will amend the list and try to fit something else in.

 

[didleoman]

didn't know it worked both ways... thought it was one way from rider to mount

 

[strewart]

Mounts Psychology on page 79 says:

Immunity to Psychology or Panic, Hatred, Frenzy, Stubborn, Unbreakable. If either the rider or the steed is subjected to any of these rules, the whole combined model is.


So yes. Seems a lot of people didn't know that, I only found out when I posted. We have a counter to the frenzied DE black dragon now.

I have no idea what to do with the spare 20 points.... All I can think of is chucking in Haunchi's banner somewhere, which would put me a few points over.