8th Ed. 2500 - versatile Lore of Light combat list

[Dunya]

Hello,

I've been playing my lizardmen quite a bit these last few months, and after much experimenting back and forth, I've finally found a list that I'm pleased with. This list is an attempt to come up with an alternative to the sluggish Lore of Life stand-there-and-take-it approach. The list is build around synergies and versatility which makes it quite entertaining to play.

Original List: Slann(CH,Rumination,SoD, Light), Scar-Vet(Armor of Destiny, Cold One, Great Weapon), 2x30 Saurus, 20 TG, 2 Stegs, 2x10 Chamo Skinks, 3 Terradons, 2 Salamanders.

Current List:

Slann Mage-Priest
- BSB, Cupped Hands, Rumination, Standard of Discipline, Ironcurse Icon, Focus of Mystery(Light)

Skink Priest /w Ancient Stegadon EotG
- Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Dawnstone

24 Skinks /w 3 Kroxigor (6x6)
- Mu

24 Saurus (6x4)
- Hand Weapons, Std, Mu

24 Saurus (6x4)
- Hand Weapons, Std, Mu

20 Temple Guard (6x4)
- Std, Mu, Banner of Eternal Flame

6 Chameleon Skinks

6 Chameleon Skinks

3 Terradons

3 Terradons

Salamander

Salamander

----
2500 pts, 122 models

The Slann is rather min-maxed which really frees up alot of points. Skipped Focus of Mystery because Lore of Light focuses on a few key spell which are quite easy to get.

*Editing the list as the discussion and testing goes along.

 

[Dunya]

This was my thought process when I created the list:

Versatility: The army is effective in every phase of the game making it possible to adjust to whatever the enemy brings.
- Long range shooting: Giant bows, Terradon Rocks, Shem's Burning Gaze
- Short Range Shooting: Chameleons, Salamanders
- Troubleshooting and flexibility: Scar-Veteran, Terradons
- Power: 2 Stegadons and 80 Saurus in a Lore of Light bubble

Synergies: The army has units supporting each other in effective combinations, and has both defensive and offensive flexibility.
- Shem's Burning Gaze + Chameleon Skinks = dead Hydras, Trolls, Treemen ...
- Speed of Light protects the big core from Pit of Shades, Purple sun.., Pha's Protection offers ranged defense against gunlines.
- The Chameleons, Terradons and Salamanders are supporting and protecting each other
- The Scar-Vet and Terradons are there to hold up/redirect anything the Temple Guard doesn't want to get charged by
- A nice hammer/anvil dynamic with the 2 Stegadons supporting the blocks

I am debating whether to trade a Stegadon for an EotG+Dawnstone. Would cut the chameleons down to 2x5, remove the handlers on the sallies and the Standard of Discipline, but I'm thinking it might be worth it. Thoughts?

C&C is very welcome.

 

[Zwuppie]

Is a Standard of Discipline usefull? You have already leadership 9 with Cold Blooded..
Maybe you can swap it for the Plaque of Tepok?
+1 spell is very usefull and u roll all dice at the same time so, change to choose a spell is bigger!
The rest is pretty nice, but why have saurus warriors hand weapons?

Cheers,

 

[Arli]

In my opinion, the standard of discipline is good, but taking the plaque of Tepok would mean dropping the cupped hands. That would not be worth it. Cupped hands will be needed at some point in the game. The hand weapons are taken to gain the 6+ parry save. I never take spears myself, I feel that they have been nerfed in 8th edition with the supporting attacks rule.

 

[Dunya]

Thanks for the feedback,

Well, I feel that with the way the spell selection works in 8th, Plahue of Tepok is not necessary. You can reliably get atleast 2 key Lore of Light spells for your Slann, and often you end up with a nice selection. It makes it even easier to get the desired spells when the signature spell is as useful as is the case.

I actually agreee that dropping the Standard of Discipline is a good idea. I've never had problem's with units in range of the Slann failing tests on Cold Blooded Ld 9 re-rollable in the past. The extra +1 Ld seems a bit redundant.

Dropping Cupped Hands is not even an option with this list. If you actually did the math on this you would see why the miscast table would ruin your day every other game without it.

On the Hand Weapon vs. Spear discussion i really feel that the two are almost equal. Only difference is that spears cost 1 more point/model making the hand weapons the more economical choice.

 

[Zwuppie]

The spears will cost extra points per model, but remember, it will give you an additional 5 attacks, most units have almost only thoughness 3 so 5xs4 will be hard and can make you steadfast or not! but if you haven't enough points for the upgrade, it will be good enough to use handweapons.

My compliments for this list! i like it!

Cheers

 

[Dunya]

The spears will cost extra points per model, but remember, it will give you an additional 5 attacks, most units have almost only thoughness 3 so 5xs4 will be hard and can make you steadfast or not! but if you haven't enough points for the upgrade, it will be good enough to use handweapons.

My compliments for this list! i like it!

Cheers

Thanks. I think thats a bit oversimplified, the 6+ parry save is quite strong aswell, and you should consider the amount of damage absorbed aswell as the amount dealt. I run my blocks 6 wide btw.

I think I will probably trade a Stegadon for an EotG+Dawnstone, and cut the chameleon units in half. Should really give a cool feel with the Lore of Light spells and the EotG in conjunction. Worth it?

 

[Taipan]

Slann Mage-Priest
- Cupped Hands, Rumination, Standard of Discipline, Lore of Light

Ld10 re-rollable on Cold-Blooded is extremely reliable, but Ld9 is just fine as well. I'd take the Eternal Flame banner instead, denying Regen in combat is huge against some units and panicking cavalry is hilarious (and Tomb Kings will hate you).

Saurus Scar-Veteran
- Cold One, Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon

Meh, why take a Scar-Vet when you can squeeze in an Old-Blood? Also, don't take mounts, there are no CoC in the army so he's got nowhere to live without making an entire unit Stupid (and no, Fear isn't worth it). Old-Blood with Talisman of Preservation and Piranha Blade can fit in Lords and makes a pretty good bodyguard to attach to your TG bunker.

30 Saurus
- Hand Weapons, Standard Bearer

30 Saurus
- Hand Weapons, Standard Bearer

You'll probably want Musicians, and 30 is kinda overkill. 24 does fine, even 20. No blowpipe skinks? Pretty economical shooty unit against monsters, and handy in an army without a magical nuke (one of the drawbacks of Light).

20 Temple Guard
- Standard Bearer

Again, Musician is a worthwhile investment

Stegadon

Stegadon

Cool. I'd make one an EOTG, but up to you.

10 Chameleon Skinks

10 Chameleon Skinks

Cool, I'd make them as small as possible (5-7 strong at most), because they will die the turn after they show up and pincushion a cannon crew or hiding mage.

3 Terradons

How do you fair with them? They seem a bit lackluster after you've dropped the rocks on a cannon crew.

Salamander
- Extra Handler

Salamander
- Extra Handler

Don't really need the extra handlers, but excellent choice.

The Slann is rather min-maxed which really frees up alot of points. Skipped Focus of Mystery because Lore of Light focuses on a few key spell which are quite easy to get.

Don't. Mystery is the best points you ever spend upgrading a Slann. Getting seven spells every game always is awesome, and unlike many other Lores you want every spell in Light. The gun magic helps shore up your weakness at shooting (Salamanders can't do it all), the combat buffs are amazing when stacked, Pha's Protection is essential if you don't have an EOTG blocking warmachine fire and still good even with one, and Net is great for trapping units you don't want near you for a turn. Pleb armies roll for their spells, Lizardmen get the option to avoid all that randomness on our awesome generic mages (don't even need to shell out for SC's like most other armies).

I am debating whether to trade a Stegadon for an EotG+Dawnstone. Would cut the chameleons down to 2x5, remove the handlers on the sallies and the Standard of Discipline, but I'm thinking it might be worth it. Thoughts?

I wouldn't take Dawnstone on it, you'll be cannoned or magicked off the board regardless. A Blood Statuette would be pretty handy though, it could snipe out an enemy mage, General or BSB early on. But yes, EOTG is a pretty good investment, and it keeps being useful all game (Stegs tend to not do much until they hit close-combat).

 

[Dunya]

Been playing this list for couple of games in a row now. And I'm definately including the EotG with the Light Setup.

Meh, why take a Scar-Vet when you can squeeze in an Old-Blood? Also, don't take mounts, there are no CoC in the army so he's got nowhere to live without making an entire unit Stupid (and no, Fear isn't worth it). Old-Blood with Talisman of Preservation and Piranha Blade can fit in Lords and makes a pretty good bodyguard to attach to your TG bunker.

I think the Old-Blood vs. Scar-Vet is a matter of whether you have the free points for it. They can both take down monsters and cavalry units on their own, though the Old-Blood has a bit more punch and an extra wound. The Old-Blood would be worth taking if I had a Dawnstone to spare on him, then I agree hes a stronger choice, but that tends to put me over the Lord allowance. I really don't understand the reasoning behind not taking the Cold One since it gives added mobility and a cheap means to bringing a Scar-Vet down to 1+, I really don't care about stupidity with Cold Blooded Ld9 Re-rollable. No one says he HAS to stay inside a unit either, the mount also makes him immune to thunderstomp.

On the List:

In general I feel like the Stegadons don't really work too well for their points without Lore of Life, and neither do the Temple Guard. So, I've decided to run the original list with Lore of Life instead. Just switched Cupped Hands for Mystery (put in a Dispel Scroll aswell), and it seems a lot stronger. TG and Stegadons kinda get beat up without Earthblood and and Life attribute. Also made a couple of minor changes like Musicians and a Flaming Banner for the TG since I no longer have enhanced Shem's Gaze to deal with Regeneration and Tree Spirits. Dropped a few Chamo Skinks for the points. This army has MAJOR weaknesses against Pit of Shades, Dweller's Bellow and Purple sun, and a smart enough opponents can still use these even if I took Cogitation. Other than that it is rock solid.

An army build around Lore of Light would include no TG or regular Stegadons. Instead I would run an EotG with Dawnstone and Dispel Scroll, and a Slann with Cogitation, Rumination, Higher State and Cupped Hands. Would then rely on 3x30/4x24 Saurus blocks and a Scar-Vet to fight. This is probably what I'm going to run with for the next period of time. Mainly for the excellent magical defense it has, since losing your Slann to Dweller's sorta sucks seing as how Life is one of the most popular lores. Having the Slann out of the TG will let me apply cogitation much more effectively and the Higher State even lets him tie up certain units.

On Lore of Light:

I still don't consider Mystery worth the 50 points. The spells I need are Speed of Light, Shem's Gaze and Timewarp which are easy enough to roll up. The fourth spell will then typically be either Banishment or Pha's Protection. Against guns I would prioritize Pha's over Speed of Light. I will never concievably want to use the remaining two, unlike Life where all of the spells have some degree of usefulness.

 

[Stonecutter]

I love the list and the idea of trying something different from the standard life list!! I think a good option that might be worth looking at is replacing one block of 30 saurus with skrox c/w command & 3 krox. To begin with, it will free up enough points to help out in other areas. There are already 2 big blocks in the army and here is what I think skrox might bring to this list:

1. Better mobility (move 6" or 12" if marched). Even without a buff, they can move quickly and with the buff, they could march 24" in one round - directly into the rear or a flanking position from across the board!!

2. More shooting - another 24 poison shots never hurts with all the big monsters these days.

3. Immune to stomp - something neither saurus nor TG are, thus making them ideal for a grind with stomping/thunderstomping monsters.

4. S6 attacks - getting 9 x S6 attacks can really make a big difference when trying to take out tougher opponents.

5. Cause fear - not a big thing but fantastic if you hit skaven on a flank.

6. Krox & skinks with WS10 & I10 are just too awesome not to try

While the skinks normally give up a ton of combat res, I think the advantages of skrox, particularly with the rest of the light supported list, make them worth taking. Just some food for thought.

 

[Dunya]

Heh, thats not a bad idea actually.

Main problem with Kroxigors has always been the relatively low amount of attacks coupled with WS3. Lore of Light might make for a strong synergy.

 

[Pyre]

Pretty much every spell in Light is worth taking. Even Burning Gaze can be boosted and cast on 3 dice, then its Strength 6, flaming, with a 48" range. Net is the single greatest spell for shutting down warmachines since they auto-fail the Strength test and sit there like morons, and its cast on a 10 with no chance for scatter.

Beware of the 24" move trick with Speed of Light though. There are still some arguments as to whether the spell is referring to the characteristic Movement/Movement Allowance. If it is, then the Movement would cap at 10"... which still means Stegadons moving as fast as flyers.

I love the idea of the ethereal light Slann and 3-4 combat blocks. Give him Cupped Hands, or maybe Earthin Rod or Soul of Stone, then pop the big Time Warp first turn. That would set up all kinds of crazy charges for turn two, or at the least have you on top of the enemy.


Pyre

 

[Dunya]

Yeah I'm gonna be running the Ethereal Slann for a bit. Might go with something like 3x24 Saurus + a Skrox unit. Temple Guard are pretty horrible without Lore of Life.

I'm sorry, but I still don't see the use for the Net. D6 str 4 is just not very frightening even should a unit fail the str test. Not that it is useless, but I will most certainly have other spells I want to use my power dice on. Burning Gaze is a beasty spell when used to drop regen combined with shooting from Chamleons, also flat out kills large Tree-Spirits.

About warmachines I feel like EotG + Pha's Protection combined with Timewarp's movement increase kinda makes gunlines food for this list. Very rarely have any spare dice with Light since the key spells are quite expensive, unlike Life where you just put down 1 PD + 1 from Rumination for half the spells.

 

[Dunya]

Updated the OP with the new list.

The Skrox are still up in the air since I don't normally think much of the unit. Its basically there to deal with thunderstomp. Haven't actually tried using Kroxigor since they lost their str 7. (atleast I have the old-school models which are way better looking)

I'm thinking that they will be shredded by regular BS based shooting even with the all the ranged defense, but who knows .. should try and keep them behind cover atleast.

C&C is welcome

 

[Pyre]

I'm sorry, but I still don't see the use for the Net. D6 str 4 is just not very frightening even should a unit fail the str test. Not that it is useless, but I will most certainly have other spells I want to use my power dice on. Burning Gaze is a beasty spell when used to drop regen combined with shooting from Chamleons, also flat out kills large Tree-Spirits.

Its not the damage that matters, its that they aren't permitted to perform the action. Put that on a Volley Gun as you're closing on the Dwarf lines to prevent it from lighting up skirmishing skinks. Throw that on some light cavalry and they have a 50/50 chance of being forced to sit still for you to charge next turn, or just keep out of the way. Use it on a unit that you feel pretty sure you're going to beat in combat, especially one with a lower strength, and if they fail the test they're dead since they cannot flee and so are automatically caught.

OK in the end its just a neat spell, but I completely agree that it is not a required one. Sorry just bored at work.


Pyre

 

[Dunya]

OK in the end its just a neat spell, but I completely agree that it is not a required one. Sorry just bored at work.

I've played 5 games in a row with Lore of Light, and not once did I feel like I was lacking good casting options, even without Mystery. But we could discuss this all day. Let me just say that I recognize that it has a use, I just don't feel that it is worth the 50 points.

I'm a bit torn between taking a Dispel Scroll or taking the Standard of Discipline and 2 extra Salamander handlers. Mostly because I already invested in Becalming Cogitation.

Really just can't decide, though I'm leaning slightly towards the Scroll atm. Should make for a supercharged magic defense, and help with Wizards staying out of the 24".

 

[Dunya]

Actually ....

Does anyone know whether the Net would stop a Cauldron of Blood from working? I mean its not specifically moving, shooting or casting spells.

 

[Dunya]

I've tried the list out and I'm pretty sure I need to go horde. I kept the EotG and the Slann wegded in the centre with two groups on either side to apply the 12" goodies, but it was a real challenge keeping the wide saurus groups inside the bubble, while adjusting to the enemy and the battlefield.

having 96 Saurus is also sligthly constraining pointwise.

I'm going to go down to a 2x39 approach, and put a Saurus character in each group. The Burning Allignment from the EotG should fry any Pendant of Khaeleth types attempting to hold up the large blocks. Not sure what to do about Steam Tanks and the like..

I will be getting a lot of free points for light troups, guess I could use them as redirecters. The Terradons might be ideal for this after they've dropped their rocks on a units of scouts or the like.

 

[Dunya]

Ok, been trying this for a couple of games and I've gotten a better idea of the strengths and weaknesses of the army.

The great power of the list is that enemy infantry and cavalry get completely demolished by the Saurus, making me think that Salamanders are not strictly needed. Instead I'm thinking of using those points on making up for the real weakness of the army which is Monsters and very tough characters/units.

The EotG is also in sort of the same boat as the Salamanders, its great against the same types of enemies that the Saurus slap around anyway. Neither the Ancient Steg nor the Engine are really an answer to Monsters and high Toughness though. As it stands the only thing in the army that can take out these types of enemies are the Scar-Vet and the Old-Blood, but there is a limit to what they can do on their own.

 

[Dunya]

Changed the list in the OP after getting to know the list a bit better. Added alot more flexibility as the 2 hordes are too hit or miss. Either the opponent has the tools to stop them or they don't, too much of a coinflip.

4 Units was a little too wide to effectively apply 12" spells, so I'm going to run a horde as an anchor with two smaller units on the sides. Added another Scar-Vet to make up for the army's weakness against monsters. Also dropped the Salamanders and the EotG for a load of Chamo's and Terradons. The main reason for dropping the EotG is that I feel I need as many Scar-Vets as possible to offset the relatively low strength of the Saurus. The extra Terradons will give me some much needed control and flexibility in the movement phase, and the high Skink numbers should help against monsters and high toughness. Alot of times the opponents wizard(s) will slink behind a building out of sight for Cupped Hands and out of range of Cogitation, bringing large amounts of Terradons and Chameleons is a great way to punish that.

I also managed to squeeze in Mystery btw, felt I could afford it with the units I left out.