7th Ed. 2250 DE List - Trying For Balance

[smiler6310]

Evening all,

My first army was DE and even though I've fallen for the Lizards big time my collection is somewhat limited at the minute. So for larger games I'm using my DE. I'm trying to find a fun and balanced list that I can use constantly (and hopefully perfect) and will also participate in some tournements in the near future.

Characters:

Lv 4 Supreme Sorceress
-Pendent of Khaeleth
-Lifetaker
-Focus Familiar
-Black Dragon

Lv 2 Sorceress
-Darkstar Cloak
-Dispel Scroll

Core:

20 Spearmen
-Full Command
-Shields
-Banner of Cold Blood

10 Crossbowmen
-Shields
-Musician

10 Crossbowmen
-Shields
-Musician

5 Dark Riders
-Crossbows
-Musician

5 Harpies

5 Harpies

Special:

6 Cold One Knights
-Standard Bearer
-Warbanner
-Musician

5 Shades
-Great Weapons

5 Shades
-Great Weapons

Rare:

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

War Hydra


Total Points: 2248pts
PD: 9 + PoD
DD: 5 + Dispel Scroll

A pretty simple layout, Hydra on one flank, Knights and Dark Riders on the other. Spears, Crossbows and Bolt throwers form the centre. The Shades provide a nasty distraction that can't be ignored. The Supreme Sorceress and harpies fly about taking out weaker units and march blocking.

For me a Lv4 on a Dragon is the perfect symbol for a fantasy game - flying evil Dragon with a nasty witch on the back throwing out fireballs etc! I am keen on my her setup, she can used in both the shooting and magic phase while the Dragon should be able to do the damage in CC. I aim to fly her around out of LoS, shoot, magic and utilise the Dragons breath attack before engaging with rear/flank charges in the latter stages of the game. The Pendent is tough and the best protection a Lv 4 can get in any DE list, I don't feel its cheesy here as it can be bypassed and she's not wearing armour so its the only protection she has. The Powerstone is good for forcing that key spell through, especially if she ca't get PoD off. Also with 5 spells to choose from she will get the best possible choice from whatever Lore she takes.

I feel the list is reasonably well balanced and can compete in every phase of the game. Hopefully it will be fairly strong to use. I'd appreciate any comments or critisims from any other DE players, but I'd also appreciate some feedback from non-DE players;

-Is this list cheesy?
-If so, why?
-Would you object to playing against it?

Thankyou for reading and any help you can give is greatly appreciated!

 

[erians]

Characters:

Lv 4 Supreme Sorceress
-Pendent of Khaeleth
-Lifetaker
-Powerstone
-Tome of Furion
-Black Dragon

Lv 2 Sorceress
-Darkstar Cloak
-Dispel Scroll

Focus Familiar is a must on the sorc. You want to be able to hide from cannons and the like to avoid the dragon getting gibbed, and it can also be used to count as if your NOT in combat, VERY important for a dragon sorc, as she wants to cast magic the turn she charges. Level 2 looks decent, but the sac dagger is a better choice if you want to go super cheesy. I usually dislike playing with 0 Masters, but you already have a ton of pts in your characters.

Core:

20 Spearmen
-Full Command
-Shields
-Banner of Cold Blood

10 Crossbowmen
-Shields
-Musician

10 Crossbowmen
-Shields
-Musician

Spearmens aren't a very solid unit, the die easily and have fairly bad LD. As the ONLY non-hammer CC unit in the list, I can't help but feel that they're kinda out of place. Shields and Musician is good on Xbows but I usually play with them naked, as they rarely see combat anyway and I like them cheap. Shields is awesome against hunters tho.

5 Dark Riders
-Crossbows
-Musician

5 Harpies

5 Harpies

Looks like a solid build. I usually go for 2 DRs and 1 harpy unit instead, as I loooove fast cav (divert - flee - rally - repeat), and your Bolt Throwers are among the best anti-war machine units in the game, but your set up offers enought harassers anyway.

Special:

6 Cold One Knights
-Standard Bearer
-Warbanner

5 Shades
-Great Weapons

5 Shades
-Great Weapons

Shades are win. So so much win. Their shooting is absolutly crazy, the more shades you have the better. If restrictions or comp allows it I always field 2x8+ Shades. Great weapons are a good upgrade, 2nd Hw is pretty good aswell and cheaper.

Rare:

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

War Hydra

Standard Rare choices. Very very effective.

-Is this list cheesy?
-If so, why?
-Would you object to playing against it?

It is incredibly cheesy, and I would never ever play against it if I wasnt playing equal cheesy list. Due to PoD it has effectivly 11 PDs, probably the best dragon in the game, a hydra, 85 shots per turn (!) and ton of harassers. This is a very competative list, in lines with double EoTG+Party slann. I like it tho.

 

[Xlcontiqu]

I have to agree with erians. This list has the feel of a gunline. Almost everything in there shoots, and the avoidance you can play with this list is insane. I would try to include Black Guard in there if you want to try to get it less of a gunline, or maybe some executioners.

 

[smiler6310]

Hey thanks for taking the time to reply guys. I really didn't see this list as that cheesy, just trying to make it strong and minimise my weaknesses - I certainly appreciate the benefit of a fresh look on it and in hindsight it is a touch on the OTT side.....But I like the list so much!

The Focus Familiar on the Dragon Sorc is a good call, I neglected it initially due to thinking the Lifetaker and Familiar are somewhat at odds with each other, but the benefit to shoot and have a 360* LoS to cast and cast in combat and cast from behind cover is too good to pass up. Besides even with no cover on the table I could still hide her behind the Hydra and cast!

I'm not going to swap the Spears for Black Guard and certainly not for Executioners. Execs are awesome models to look at but to make them viable requires a CoB or an ASF BSB, or an assassin or a level of skill I simply do not have or a combination of all 4! BG are very, very good but also uber expensive! Without dropping other units the most I can squeeze in is 13 without anything or 10 with banner etc. However 10-13 BG just won't cut it, with a 5+ AS they'll just get shot apart with ease. The Spears while inferior to BG can make it up in numbers and may possibly be overlooked by an opponant who has bigger issues (targets) to concentrate on!

Putting the Familiar on the Dragon Sorc frees up 10pts, with which I'm toying with the idea of upgrading the BoCB to the Banner of Murder on the Spearmen. Having the AP rule on the Spears will potentially be a nasty surprise to an opponant and even though they die very easily they may just take some with them.

I've edited the above list rather than re-post it all again, what do you think?

 

[JohnMavrick]

I agree with Erians in all his suggestions and comments about your list. The problem with DE is that if you want to have a competative list it's gonna be seen as cheesy. Here are just a few examples of what you could do to lesen the cheese factor.

Instead of a dragon, take a Dark Peg or even a cold one. It's not as frightening and people will be less apt to complain. However because this makes your lvl 4 more squishy definately go with that defense factor!
I'd also stay away from the Beastmaster as this will bring more cheese...::sigh:: tough I know!

Stick with the spearmen for all the right reasons you listed. They're excellent for SCR, but perhaps trade the banner for a War banner for that extra +1 CR! I'd also agree with dropping the shields. It's not that expensive but your not likely to get into CC. I'd also suggest dropping a unit of harpies, even if your not considering another unit of DR. Harpies are really only good at war machine hunting and march blocking and you've got so much of that already! Those points from harpies will be great more more spearmen or more of those awesome shades!

Something you might wanna consider about your Spearmen and lvl 4; put her on foot and give her that dagger, up the amount of spearmen to around 25 or thirty. This way she can get more and more and more PD by sacrificing those cheap guys and really overwelm your magic phase!

For your Rare slots I think you've got a pretty standard go. If your looking at more cheese drop the bolt throwers and go with another Hydra. Or go the other way with no Hydra but four bolt throwers! Otherwise I'd keep it the same as you've got it!

Good luck in your game! I hate playing against DE (no matter what army I have) but I love the army and it's look!

 

[smiler6310]

Thanks for replying JohnMavrick, its much appreciated. I will keep the Spearmen, I want a decent sized unit in my list. Having spoken to a mate about banner choice I've decided to go back to BoCB on the Spearmen. I run them 4x5 anyway to max out their SCR and giving them the Cold-Blooded rule for a turn should hopefully forgo me failing that crucial break test. I agree the Warbanner would go well here but its already on my Knights to boost them when they go 'rubber-lance' and fluff their attacks!

I'm opting to keep the shields and musician on my Crossbow units. They are suprisingly resiliant when hit by the usual suspects that target them eg fast cav, scouts, flyers, lone WM hunters etc and often my musician has tipped the tide in my favour!

The level 4 stays on the Dragon, I just like the idea and setup too much to change it. A friend runs his Lv4 on a Dark Peggy and has nothing but praise for it but its just not for me. The Sacrifice dagger is a good call maybe for my lv2 but with so few bodys in this list already I don't want to be losing anymore than I have to.

 

[JohnMavrick]

Your counter points are excellent. I think your list is just pretty solid and while I'd not like to fight against it I believe it's not overly cheesy for a DE list, trust me you could have done a lot cheesier!

 

[smiler6310]

Thankyou for again taking the time to reply JohnMavrick - if you don't mind I'd appreciate your and others take on this version its near enough the same list as above but I've dropped the Spears and Shade weapons for more Dark Riders and Cold One Knights.

Characters:

Lv 4 Supreme Sorceress
-Pendent of Khaeleth
-Lifetaker
-Focus Familiar
-Black Dragon

Lv 2 Sorceress
-Darkstar Cloak
-Dispel Scroll

Core:

10 Crossbowmen
-Shields
-Musician

10 Crossbowmen
-Shields
-Musician

5 Dark Riders
-Crossbows
-Musician

5 Dark Riders
-Crossbows
-Musician

5 Harpies

5 Harpies

Special:

5 Cold One Knights
-Musician

5 Cold One Knights
-Musician

5 Shades

5 Shades

Rare:

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

War Hydra

Total Points: 2250pts
PD: 9 + PoD
DD: 5 + Dispel Scroll

I'd look at the Hydra in the centre flanked by a Crossbow unit on either side along with the Lv 2. As mentioned above the Crossbows can be quite resilliant and along with the Hydra can form a solid(ish) centre that advances behind a wall of Crossbow bolts and flames! Bolt Throwers deploy trying to get the best LoS across the battlefield - these are very good at protecting the Dragon as other large targets that target her at hesitant to expose themselves to the RBTs.

On each flank is a DR and COK unit. Together they are reasonably cheap but still pack a punch and combined should be able to clear most flanking units. The Shades scout where possible and try to be distraction behind enemy lines focusing on his missile troops, fast/flying troops and WM where possible. The Dragon and Harpies form a aerial detachment combing to break small units and march block - the harpies are also good at being parked in fromt of WM and missile troops as living shields for the Dragon!

Weaknesses - 2 stupidity tests each turn........but thankfully there is not alot of points involved, so just take the rough with the smooth on this one. No ranked unit is potentially a weakness but it will force me to focus more on combining charges to break enemy units. Magic defense is somewhat lacking too. Only 61 models plus monsters and WM leaves me abit shorthanded, but that playing elves to an extent and having 2 monster!

Strengths - A potential 95 shots a turn including WM! 2 Strong terror causing monsters, 2 fear causing cavalry each supported by arguably the best fast cav in the game. Strong magic offense and its also quite a fast list.

So there you have it and I'd welcome any responses/comments on this version. As always its gladly appreciated guys thankyou!

 

[JohnMavrick]

This army reminds me very much of the sort of tactics we use as mobile infantry. You have a good base of fire with fast moving units on the flanks to charge in on the sides and rear of units to catch them in a meat grinder action.

I think it's a strong list that's pretty well balanced with shooting and close combat. Your harpies and shades will tied up your opponent's army from marching while you shoot him. All the while he'll have to break up his own battle line while he tries to deal with your flanking teams.

My only concern is what you've already addressed. You have to ranked up units which can tie down an enemy. Your Hydra can somewhat fullfill that role but against an elite unit or heavy hammer unit it'll have some trouble with it.

Funny thing is this list appeals to my WE nature. I like it a lot! Probably more than your other two lists.

 

[smiler6310]

Funny thing is this list appeals to my WE nature. I like it a lot!

Thankyou! While I'm pretty much set with my Dragon-Mage list now I thought I'd appeal to your WE nature and show you a MSU army a friend and I are cooking up. Its quite similar to mine but with a few key and nasty elements thrown in!

Characters:

Death Hag - General
-Cauldron of Blood

Master
-BSB
-Standard of Slaughter
-Heavy Armour
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Lance
-Shield
-2 Repeater Handbows
-Dark Pegasus

Master
-Deathpiercer
-Ring of Hotek
-Heavy Armour
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Shield
-2 Repeater Handbows
-Dark Pegasus

Lv 1 Sorceress
-Dispel Scroll
-Dispel Scroll

Core:

10 Crossbowmen - LV1 in here
-Shields
-Guardmaster
-Musician

10 Crossbowmen
-Shields
-Musician

5 Dark Riders
-Crossbows
-Musician

5 Dark Riders
-Crossbows
-Musician

5 Harpies

5 Harpies

Special:

6 Cold One Knights
-Musician

6 Cold One Knights
-Musician

5 Shades
-Great Weapons

5 Shades
-Great Weapons

Rare:

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

War Hydra

Total Points: 2250pts
PD: 3 + PoD
DD: 3 + 2 Dispel Scrolls + Ring of Hotek

Deployment likely as my above list. But instead of a Dragon we have the Cauldron - superb in boosting the Knights to break units and also in blessing the Hydra with KB.....very mean but so much fun! Lots of shooting (100 shots of varying strength) and 2 capable characters on DP's. The Ring of Hotek carrier is a nightmare as he can fly and drop the rings influence over Lv 4's and normally stay out of sight whilst going after WM or lone characters with his KB lance.

My favourite though has to be the BSB, he is a MSU dream! He carries the 'Standard of Slaughter' which gives you +D3 to your SCR on the turn he charges, so when he does charge he hits at S6, has an large charge range being on the pegasus and develops 2 - 4 SCR on his own whilst negating enemy units ranks by hitting in the flank or rear of said enemy unit. As mentioned he is uber mobile and would have a harpy screen for added protection so he can zoom about always adding other units with his 2 - 4 SCR and helping those in need to re-roll that dreaded break test!

Weakness - stupidity, magic defense is ok but the Ring isn't full proof. No ranked units but thats a given in a MSU army.

As I mentioned I'm going with my Dragon-Mage, I like my list too much to swap! The list here is still on the drawing board of my friend and I, but I'm twisting his arm to run it! So what do you think of this DE version of what WE do best?

 

[JohnMavrick]

It looks pretty solid. Though I think one of the problems you might run into is the range your CoB. Because it's a stationary object your opponent might try to pull you outside of it's effective range. We had a gal used to game with us that took one almost every single time and people quickly developed tactics to draw here outside of it's influence which utterly destroyed her because she was so dependant upon it.

Other wise I like the list! You were correct in assuming it would appeal to me!