7th Ed. 2000 to give VC a good fight

[Straylight]

Good [appropriate time of day] all,

This list is an experiment with two objectives:

1. To see how viable 2000 points is with what I have. The list uses every model I own except for a single CoR. To that end, I'm mostly looking at unit arrangements and gear loadout, rather than unit selection. I'm working with what I have.

2. To put up a good fight against a less-experienced but highly competitive VC player. He's a power gamer at heart and I have no excuse not to be, and he'd really like to take revenge for the last trouncing my Asrai gave him. I don't want to let him win, of course, but if he's going to, I'm going to make him work for it. He runs a fast-moving army built around a Blood Knight cruise missile, often supplemented by a Black Coach.

So, the list:

Lords & Heroes:

Oldblood on Cold One, Scimitar, Maiming Shield, Carno Pendant, LA
General. Starts with the CoR, but likely wanders off on his own at some point.

Scar-Vet, Burning Blade, War Drum, LA, Shield
Anchors the line, aren't vampires flammable?

Priest on EotG, Diadem, Scroll
Don't own a frog, so he'll have to do

Core:

16 Saurus w/Spears, FC
Scar-Vet goes here, the 2 extra Saurii were to fill points

12 Saurus w/Spears, Mus., Std.

12 Saurus w/Spears, Mus., Std.

12 Skinks
Steggy protection duty

12 Skink Skirmishers

12 Skink Skirmishers


Special:

9 Chameleon Skinks

6 Cold One Cav, Huanchi's, FC


The skinks are going to be working overtime to redirect the right charges as well as gun down the odd zombie summon. The priest, likewise, is going to be on defensive duty the entire game. The engine could do bad, bad things to his knights once they start to close in, but he's really here to make sure VanHel's never goes off.

The Oldblood is there to hopefully kill the Coach, if present, before it reaches full strength (or even if it does, really), and then he's content running amok behind enemy lines. 8 S5 frenzied magical attacks should ensure that anything that could actually pose a threat to him doesn't want to get close enough to try.

 

[Bibamus]

i think the old blood would have 9 after the frenzy kicks in
also, i suggest plaque of dominion against vamps, all his characters are wizards.
other than that... a frog would be nice but since you don't own one it can't be helped, terradons are also very usefull against blood knights since they tend to charge them every turn they get nad terries have hit and run, since you don't have them skinks will have to do the trick but its harder and less reliable
aslo, i'd worry more about IoN than van'hels
you will probably scroll it when it goes off in a critical moment and as long as he doesn't spam IoN to increase his units it should be a fair fight.

last, but not least, VC are not TK, ergo vampires are not flammable as tomb kings/princes high/regular liche priests are

 

[erians]

Oldblood on Cold One, Scimitar, Maiming Shield, Carno Pendant, LA
General. Starts with the CoR, but likely wanders off on his own at some point.

Scar-Vet, Burning Blade, War Drum, LA, Shield
Anchors the line, aren't vampires flammable?

Priest on EotG, Diadem, Scroll
Don't own a frog, so he'll have to do

I understand that you might be limited by the models you own, but from a "power gamer" perspective the Slann is a far, far more competative choice than the oldblood. He provides amazing magic defence and offence, as well as much needed LD9 over the oldbloods 8. Becamling Cogitation really messes with the VCs magic phase, and Spirit of the Forge is pretty much the only way to handle a regenerating Black Knight bus, which should be a VC power gamers first choice.

The Scar-vet is nice, flaming attacks helps a lot against the regen banner, which is a must have for any competative player. He also eats bloodknights, as he gives a total of -4 AS. War drum is good, but if this list is supposed to be tailored against VC, who doesnt really have that many march blockers unless he plays with a ton of fell bats, you could go for some hit power item or a protection item instead (Enchanted Shield or Maiming shield comes to mind).

EotG is great, Burning Alignment is awesome for killing blood knights (not flaming hits tho, despite the name). 6 DDs and scroll goes a long way too.

Core:

16 Saurus w/Spears, FC
Scar-Vet goes here, the 2 extra Saurii were to fill points

12 Saurus w/Spears, Mus., Std.

12 Saurus w/Spears, Mus., Std.

12 Skinks
Steggy protection duty

12 Skink Skirmishers

12 Skink Skirmishers

16 saurus warriors + scar vet can deploy in 3x6, giving them a ton of S4 attacks (eats any undead inf). Id probably consider dropping the standards on the units of 12, they don't rely on SCR anyway and they only risk giving up +100 VPs if they get beaten, which is a lot of risk (100 VPs) against little reward (+1 CR). +1 CR kills 1 undead extra on crumbling, hardly game breaking. Otherwise very good choices.

Special:

9 Chameleon Skinks

6 Cold One Cav, Huanchi's, FC

Both units are a little too big imo. 9 Cammo skinks will rarely get the chance to scout properly, 2 units of 5 is far better and only costs 12 pts extra. 6 CoC is nice on their own, but when you pop a Oldblood in there you get a 7 wide unit (or 6 wide with 1 in the last rank), which is very clumsy as wheeling takes more move and CoC will most likley stand on the sidelines in combat anyway. 6 is a good unit size after including characters (5+1 or 6+0).

The Oldblood is there to hopefully kill the Coach, if present, before it reaches full strength (or even if it does, really), and then he's content running amok behind enemy lines. 8 S5 frenzied magical attacks should ensure that anything that could actually pose a threat to him doesn't want to get close enough to try.

[/quote]

Interesting that someone who consider themselves a power gamer uses a black coach ! Wraiths and Vargulvs are far more competative (and more popular) choices. If you want something that can deal with the coach then a scar vet on foot is nice, with GW he gets S7 (bai bai coach). He lacks speed tho and jag charm is only good if you play magic heavy. The oldblood is hardly a Coach killer. With 9 attacks at S5 he usually scores 6 hits, 2 wounds, and then he gets a 5+ save and a 4+ ward, which means you do 0.66 wounds on avarage. He will however destroy knights and infantry alike with 9 S5 attacks.

 

[Sebulba]

What you need to do is spread some fear causers around your army to prevent autobreaking. I would really suggest putting your scarvet on a cold one (more maneuverable with the BBoC) so that he can get to where he needs to go.

Or, you could give the BBoC to the Oldblood and use your scarvet as a BSB with the Totem of Prophecy (unit causes fear) to prevent them from autobreaking. OR, you could give him the Plaque of Dominion to make all his wizards stupid and put him on a cold one to make your unit cause fear as well.

If you know his Blood Knights are going to give you problems, find a strategy for killing them off and then, no matter what, you should at least draw.

 

[Bibamus]

if you hit blood knights in the flank with a saurus unit and manage to kill the one who could strike back you probably killed the whole unit due to your static CR + flank + 1 kill. nothing saves a unit against that and usually they are few enough (6-7) to die at the end of the round

 

[Sebulba]

Don't undead still get armor saves versus crumbing after losing a combat?

 

[Bibamus]

nay, they get no saves whatsoever, they only get ward saves and regen against the general dead Ld test thingy

 

[Sebulba]

Wow, did not know that.

But do they get saves against losing combat? Aka, they roll 3 over their leadership after they lose a combat. Do they get 3 saves or just 3 die?

 

[Bibamus]

hey aren't demons, they take as many wounds as the ammount they lost combat with:
unit of knights losses combat by 5: they take 5 wounds

 

[erians]

nay, they get no saves whatsoever, they only get ward saves and regen against the general dead Ld test thingy

Thats wrong, they get take 1 wound for every combat ress they loose with in combat, with no armor saves allowed, they still get regen and ward save, which is why the regen banner is uber overpowered.

 

[Bibamus]

hmm, i need to remind my VC opponenet to check his rules again... i hate it when people don't know the rules of their own armies.
mea culpa, i thought the guy knew how things worked, looks like i need to reavaluate my tactics against VC's

 

[Straylight]

Thanks for the thought, all. I have some considerations to make, both in the list and in future purchases.

understand that you might be limited by the models you own, but from a "power gamer" perspective the Slann is a far, far more competative choice than the oldblood. He provides amazing magic defence and offence, as well as much needed LD9 over the oldbloods 8. Becamling Cogitation really messes with the VCs magic phase, and Spirit of the Forge is pretty much the only way to handle a regenerating Black Knight bus, which should be a VC power gamers first choice.

Agreed entirely, and the frog is probably my next purchase once I've got the rest of this pile built and painted. And it's likely to be a regenerating Blood Knight bus that around here is affectionately known as the Cruise Missile (5 BK, full command with frenzy? banner, Vampire BSB with regen banner, Vampire Lord with Blood Drinkers and I think there's a Book somewhere nearby too)

The Scar-vet is nice, flaming attacks helps a lot against the regen banner, which is a must have for any competative player. He also eats bloodknights, as he gives a total of -4 AS. War drum is good, but if this list is supposed to be tailored against VC, who doesnt really have that many march blockers unless he plays with a ton of fell bats, you could go for some hit power item or a protection item instead (Enchanted Shield or Maiming shield comes to mind).

Maiming Shield is already tied up on the Oldblood, but I'm unsure of how I want to use both the Saurii characters, so there may be some swaps in here. The War Drum is largely here as an anchor if anything else ends up fleeing through the area. The always-march is a secondary perk in this case.

EotG is great, Burning Alignment is awesome for killing blood knights (not flaming hits tho, despite the name). 6 DDs and scroll goes a long way too.

That was my thought. Even if he decides to just avoid the Engine, that's at least a significant area of the board I can keep him out of.

16 saurus warriors + scar vet can deploy in 3x6, giving them a ton of S4 attacks (eats any undead inf). Id probably consider dropping the standards on the units of 12, they don't rely on SCR anyway and they only risk giving up +100 VPs if they get beaten, which is a lot of risk (100 VPs) against little reward (+1 CR). +1 CR kills 1 undead extra on crumbling, hardly game breaking. Otherwise very good choices.

Was thinking about it, but I'm stretching a little to hit 2K with what I've got as it is, and these blocks are very likely going to end up on Ghoul duty, intercepting screening units. Still, another box of something or maybe a Sallie to make up the difference and the banners go away.

Both units are a little too big imo. 9 Cammo skinks will rarely get the chance to scout properly, 2 units of 5 is far better and only costs 12 pts extra.

If I owned another skink...

6 CoC is nice on their own, but when you pop a Oldblood in there you get a 7 wide unit (or 6 wide with 1 in the last rank), which is very clumsy as wheeling takes more move and CoC will most likley stand on the sidelines in combat anyway. 6 is a good unit size after including characters (5+1 or 6+0).

True, but it's likely the Oldblood, if I keep him as he is, is going to get let off the chain and make his own charge out of the unit at some point, where I end up with a 6+0. I know the Champ is a risk, but if the unit gets tagged by the Lord before the general gets out, I'd rather have him around.

Interesting that someone who consider themselves a power gamer uses a black coach ! Wraiths and Vargulvs are far more competative (and more popular) choices.

Call it an odd quirk of the local scene. It's also a psychological factor, and it works.

On the rest of the coach, I'd forgotten about that Ward, to be honest. We'll see if I can shuffle the characters around to create a better solution.