8th Ed. 2000 points, unorthodox tourney list, Can it work?

[Scalenex]

Or is it too gimmicky.

The tournament uses 50% caps on Heroes and Lords and the Lore of Undeath as an option but no Legions lists or End Times Magic.

I played a 2500 game with a Death Slann and two Undeath Skinks. The problem is I was so enamored of using Undeath I underutilized the Slann, so I thought, why not ditch the Slann? A tooled up Slann takes a big chunk points in a 2000 point game.

Scar Veteran, Great Weapon, Armor of Destiny, Carnosaur with Loping Stride and Bloodroar
Scar Veteran, BSB, Gambler's Armor, Egg of Quango, Great Weapon
Skink Priest, Level 2 Lore of Undeath, Dispel Scroll
Skink Priest, Level 2 Lore of Undeath, Power Stone

27 Sword and Board Saurus Warriors with Full Command
20 Cohort Skinks with Full Command
12 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields and Patrol Leader

5 Kroxigors with Ancient
Bastiladon with Solar Engine

Salamander with Snack
Salamander with Snack
5 Chameleon Skinks

I took a Scarnosaur rather than an Oldblood to save points. I'll roll the power stone Skink's spell last to hopefully get a choice and end up with the 5 or 6 spell to drop the stone on. I gave the BSB the Egg to split my offense between the Carnosaur and the groundling, and to give me a dash of CR if the Saurus blocks gets overwhelmed. Hopefully this will force me to step up my redirector game. I have a fair number of skirmihsing things and a (theoretically) bottomless pit of summoned troops will keep the enemy infantry in check. 5 Kroxigor and a Carnosaur should be able to handle anything big.

The Solardon and Salamanders are for basting things.

The tournament scenarios will be pretty vanilla, but there is a building in the center of every table. You get a few bonus points for if you enter a unit into said building at anytime. You get another set of bonus points if you are holding it when the game is over.

Getting in the building should be easy with Chamo Skinks, 12 inch marching Skinks and the ability to summon things, but holding it will be a challenge and retaking it will be a pain. It's somewhat tempting to take the Banner of Eternal Flame on my BSB or swap the Kroxigor and my 50 points of post-Core tax to buy some Temple Guard with said Banner, but I don't want to overly fixate on the building. I mean Saurus are decent at assaulting buildings as is. That's 20 PF attacks.

What say ye?

 

[airjamy]

I really feel like this verges on viability, but i also feel like the list is just slightly to slow to really control the board. A good opponent will try to avoid the saurus block, and then you only really have the sub optimal kroxigors to fight with and the bastiladon. I would expect the Carnosaur to be hit by every spell and cannonball in any matchup, so i see every hit he does in CC as sortoff a bonus (i am very negative towards expensive monsters). I think i would rather see a unit TG instead of the Krocks to offer you another place for a CC infantry unit in combination with the banner. I take the banner of eternal flame in all my tourney lists , if i would be offered a 100% inportant building every game i would love it even more. It is just to good against Hellpits and Trolls.

 

[GhostWarrior]

I think I want to qualify my answer with a bit of a question...what is your goal for this Tournament?

My answer below is going to assume that you want to give yourself 'a pretty darn good shot at winning each game'.

Knowing that there will be a building on the board for every game, and that it will represent a portion of your points gained every time is quite a bit deal. Airjamy had a good point when he referenced the Banner of Eternal Flame. I am a person who is anti-Temple Guard. But if I were going to an event with the conditions you just mentioned, I would just as well assume that a Temple Guard unit was an auto-include. Ideally, a Wandering Deliberations Slann would be best in that unit-thanks to all the MM, and the good buffs you can give to the TG, but I won't suggest WD to you.

You've got a theme regarding Lore of Undeath, and that's awesome. My friends and I, who practiced for Swedish Comp tournaments a lot and were looking to see if we could maximize on Undeath, found that it is at its BEST when 1) You use a Lvl 4 and 2) You can reliably generate extra dice for the lore. In this way, I would suggest an 'army core' of the following:

The Building Assault Team:
Slann, BSB, Lore of Undeath, Reservoir of Eldritch Energy, Soul of Stone, Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Channeling Staff, Banner of Eternal Flame
Saurus or Temple Guard Unit - 20+ Models (Stick Slann in here, if temple guard, consider razor standard)
Oldblood or Scar Vet on Foot with a Magic Weapon and defensive gear(so that at least 1 model does not have flaming attacks) - Say, a Scar Vet with Sword of Striking, Enchanted Shield, LA, Talisman of Endurance?
Lvl 2 Skink with Scroll and Beasts (doesn't have to go in the unit, but uniquely, wouldn't be in a bad position if he was in there.

This is a rock-solid group, that should be able to remove most threats in a building, assuming you couldn't stop a unit from making it in. At 2k, I would recommend using your Core points for Saurus, as your goal would be to not get out of the building once you were in it. As for other parts to the army:

The Delivery System for the Building Assault Team:
Chameleon Skinks
Terradons
Skink Skirmishers

The job of the Chameleons and the Terradons is to prevent a direct assault or movement from you opponent into the building. If they can delay your opponent for 1-2 turns, you should be able to make it in with your assault team, or only have minor resistance. You can also use units that you summon to help with this job. Remember that typically units can only go into buildings if they make a non-march move into it. This means that even accepting a charge from one unit can be worth it, if it blocks all other units from being able to enter.

The Skirmishers prevent fast moving infantry (or spell boosted infantry) from making a flanking maneuver into the building.

The Rest of the Army:
Units of your choice, doing whatever the other scenarios deem necessary. Typically, their objective is to delay and give away as few of their points as possible, whilst the Slann raises new Undead units with impunity. These Undead units can help the rest of your army achieve its goals.

 

[rottedtoad]

i'd have to agree with ghostwarrior. if you want to do undeath, which i think you should, since you like it, then do it on a slann. +4 to cast is just invaluable both to cast and to dispel, not to mention the bonus channeling, and again, as ghostwarrior says, those are both necessary for successful use of undeath.

when is your tournament? any chance of practice games for it, or are you going to go into cold?

 

[Scalenex]

when is your tournament? any chance of practice games for it, or are you going to go into cold?

It's on April 18th. I am going to play a 3000 point game this Thursday. I might be able to talk my opponent into two 2000 point games or just make the 3000 point a megaversion of the one below.

@arjamy, you are right. I should either take two big dinosaurs or zero. One is just asking to die, the Bastiladon will cause no target staturation versus a Carnosaur. I should also focus on the building since that is a known objective multiple times..

Usually I take a 20 model strong Skink Cohort, but this time I think I'll use Chameleon Skinks as a place holder while I wait for my Temple Guard.

I think I want to qualify my answer with a bit of a question...what is your goal for this Tournament?

My answer below is going to assume that you want to give yourself 'a pretty darn good shot at winning each game'.

I've played unorthodox lists for funises my last two tournaments and ended up in the middle of the pack both time. It's time to win now.

Basically I'm going to use your list as a template, with Undeath of course.

Slann, Undeath, Harmonic Convergence, Soul of Stone, Becalming Cognition, BSB, Banner of Swiftness, Channeling Staff, Ironcurse Icon
Oldblood, Glittering Scales armor, Fencer's Blades, Potion of Strength, Opal Amulet

Skink Priest, L1 Heavens (or Beasts or Undeath, don't know yet), Dispel Scroll

25 sword and board Saurus Warriors, FC
2 x 13 Skink Skirmishers with Patrol Leader

30 Temple Guard with FC, Banner of Eternal Flame, Warrior Bane
13 Chameleon Skinks with Stalker

Salamander with Snack

So the plan is to claim the building with Chameleon Skinks in case I don't get first turn. March in the building ASAP with my Temple Guard and then defend the building with a never ending horde of undead.

I'll have to talk to the ref, I'm set for for Ryze and Rhazkar, but if I use the other two summoning spells I need to use proxies. If that's not allowed. I'll switch this to a WD Slann, drop a few Temple Guard to pay for the Wandering Deliberations and MAYBE take a second Sally. Then the plan is this:

So the plan is to claim the building with Chameleon Skinks in case I don't get first turn. March in the building ASAP with my Temple Guard and then defend the building by blasting and hexing anything remotely able to take on 20 PF attacks with my 360 degree visibility for spells.

EDIT: I guess I am set to try some practice games...against the friendly Chaos player who has beaten me 9 times out of 10 (the tenth was a VERY low points game in a map campaign, Skinks dominate that no matter who is the opponent)

Let me know if you guys think I make some last minute changes before the practice games on Thursday.

 

[airjamy]

Feels like a better plan then what you had before. I am really struggeling to think of any unit that will challenge your TG once they are in the building. Maybe even take high magic to walk between worlds you to the building? When you are in the building however, i think that WD gives you more usefull spells. TG, especially with Eternal Flame are, i think, one of the best units in the game to hold buildings. You get predatory fighter with every attack, and you have a lot. Only chaos warriors and the like will be able to force you out i think, especially if they also have Eternal Flame, which i expect. One thing you might want to be carefull about, if you lose combat in the middle building, does that auto kill your Slann if he is a BSB? You might only want to take a banner on your unit if this is the case, but i am not 100% on the rules on this one, especially as i never put important units in buildins. Just play points deny, take middle building, win game i would say.

 

[GhostWarrior]

Looks good. I do want to point out something to you regarding your Chameleon plan: it may not work.

On a typical 4'x6' table, place a building in the center of the table. Even if the building if very small (say 2"x2"), it will be <12" away from your opponent, if he deploys any unit on the deployment line in a direct path to the building. This would mean that your chameleons will not be able to deploy in the building - though they could be just beside it, and a bit back from the point closest to the enemy.

Really (and unfortunately) there is NO way to prevent the player who gets 1st turn from being able to occupy the building in their opening move. Your group/the TO allows Swift Reforming into a building correct? (sometimes that is house-ruled out). If this maneuver is allowed, even Dwarf units can make it in on Turn 1.

Your Chameleons, Skirmishers, and Terradons (should you take some), are best utilized in delaying/preventing too many continuous charges onto the building, which will grind your opponent out.

Best of luck in your practice game!

 

[rottedtoad]

@airjamy Not sure if I misunderstood, but Flaming Attacks won't help in defending a building, since (BRB 69), "Fire can be a valuable weapon for driving out the defenders of a fortification. Every model with Flaming Attacks rerolls failed To Wound rolls when shooting at or assaulting a building, to represent the added peril for the occupants of being inside the burning structure."

A common misconception I've noticed is that any attack with buildings that have the flaming special rule can reroll To Wound rolls, but it is only when assaulting. So Scalenex' TG would gain the reroll when attempting to take the building, but not when defending.

As much as I really like Undeath, maybe Undeath won't be the strongest if you are bringing saurus and TG. I think those really need combat buffs to be effective. Undeath on a Slann lends itself to a skink cloud, where you have much great movement, range, and can summon throughout the board without risking your Slann in a block of TG that can get ground out by much of what is fielded in the game today (at least in my area).

 

[airjamy]

@airjamy Not sure if I misunderstood, but Flaming Attacks won't help in defending a building, since (BRB 69), "Fire can be a valuable weapon for driving out the defenders of a fortification. Every model with Flaming Attacks rerolls failed To Wound rolls when shooting at or assaulting a building, to represent the added peril for the occupants of being inside the burning structure."

A common misconception I've noticed is that any attack with buildings that have the flaming special rule can reroll To Wound rolls, but it is only when assaulting. So Scalenex' TG would gain the reroll when attempting to take the building, but not when defending.

As much as I really like Undeath, maybe Undeath won't be the strongest if you are bringing saurus and TG. I think those really need combat buffs to be effective. Undeath on a Slann lends itself to a skink cloud, where you have much great movement, range, and can summon throughout the board without risking your Slann in a block of TG that can get ground out by much of what is fielded in the game today (at least in my area).

You are right, i was one who was also misinterpreting that rule. That makes Eternal Flame slightly less good, but still a very strong pick IMHO. I think that the undead lore is still a viable lore, of not the best. WD, as i said, might give you more from defending a building, but maybe the whole game will not be depending on that if the enemy goes full cavalry to kill everything that is outisde of the building and win via that way.

 

[Scalenex]

Played two practice games today against my friend's rock hard Warriors of Chaos list.

He had a Chaos Lord on a Demon Steed (1+ Dawnstone armor, 4+ Ward, reroll 1s), L4 Undeath Tzeentch caster on disk (3+ Ward reroll 1s) and a BSB on Daemonic Mount (1+ armor, 3+ Ward reroll 1s). 5 Bloodcrushers with FC, 20 ish Slaanesh Warriors FC and Flaming Banner, Core Chariot with Mark of Slaanesh.

Found out that the scenario written by the tournament organizer specifically says that even Scouts cannot deploy within 12 inches of the building I swapped 7 Chamo Skinks, the Stalker, and Salamander snack to take a second Salamander in the unit.

I killed the chariot with shooting. Nearly claimed the building with summoned troops that were dispelled, but the Warriors snuck in while the three characters gradually ground down my Saurus Warriors and Temple Guard. The defense was too high to consistently wound. Magic phase defense was very good on both sides, especially me. He got ONE spell off past my defense. IF Vargheists which kept my Skinks occupied after the chariot dead. I got a few chaff units summoned and lots of Harmonic Convergence from the Skink Priest. I summoned a flanking Warsphinx in turn 4 or 5 but it was too late to save my Slann from the pincers of the leaders and bloodcrushers.

Second game, my friend suggest I add a great weapon Scar Veteran, so I dropped the Chamo Skinks altogether and switched to one Sally with a snack and used the points to build a Scar Veteran Cowboy with great weapon and Armor of Destiny. Also used the points left over to swap out my Iron Curse Icon for the Egg of Quango. I forgot I had it, but the only eligible targets would have been nigh unwoundable Tzeentch characters. I did slightly better, helped by the L4 Tzeentch guy getting sucked into a Vortex on turn one, but I still lost. The general and BSB just ground down my two Saurus blocks and I couldn't kill them.

So we concluded that in order to have a chance against his Tzeentch Dream Team, I would need to take the Blade of Realities and/or High Magic lore mastery (for Arcane Unforging). Since the Blade of Realities would be poor choice in an all comer's environment. We both believe the list with the Scar Veteran added will do fairly well in an all-comer's environment, so I could keep that list and hope I don't play my friend's Tzeentch leaders of death, or I could run with High Magic and have a wider competitive applicability at the cost of being an almost generic Lizardmen army.

What do you think I should do?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Played two practice games today against my friend's rock hard Warriors of Chaos list.

He had a Chaos Lord on a Demon Steed (1+ Dawnstone armor, 4+ Ward, reroll 1s), L4 Undeath Tzeentch caster on disk (3+ Ward reroll 1s) and a BSB on Daemonic Mount (1+ armor, 3+ Ward reroll 1s)

so I could keep that list and hope I don't play my friend's Tzeentch leaders of death

What do you think I should do?

I would ask your buddy how he managed to get 3 characters that had ward saves which allowed for the re-rolling 1s. The Third Eye of Tzeentch, which grants that ability, is limited to 1 per army (just like any selection from the Chaos Mutations & Powers list).

Besides that, I'd go with High Magic; Arcane Unforging is such a useful spell to have against quite a few armies.

 

[Scalenex]

I would ask your buddy how he managed to get 3 characters that had ward saves which allowed for the re-rolling 1s. The Third Eye of Tzeentch, which grants that ability, is limited to 1 per army (just like any selection from the Chaos Mutations & Powers list).

I don't think they all had it. The point is, every character had multiple layers of magical defense on top of their powerful stats.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I don't think they all had it. The point is, every character had multiple layers of magical defense on top of their powerful stats.

Fair enough. Warriors of Chaos are my other main army, so I know how potent their characters can be. Arcane Unforging is your friend!

 

[Skinquisitor]

Scarnosaur<oldblood cowboy. Maybe its only me, but still... And id mount the bsb, drop sauruses. Only solarodon will buff them, so... they will be dead for sure all matches. More skinks!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Scarnosaur<oldblood cowboy

I agree; the Oldblood Cowboy is far more effective due to durability.

 

[rottedtoad]

Yeah, as much as I like Undeath, I think High magic is the way to go. Your old blood looks pretty unkillable, but he doesn't look very dangerous. Why not kit him out to do a lot more damage? What about a 1+ rerollable, 4+ GW old blood and a scar vet cowboy? You can cut out a few TG, especially with High Magic, I don't think you need that many.

I'd also agree with skinquisitor, maybe you should drop the saurus and take a bunch more shooty skinks. Might not help against the WoC, but then again, they can be good chaff. Did you say those characters were on daemonic mounts? then without flying your skinks can chaff them up.

Maybe a good list would be something like:

Slaan with high loremaster and the rest of the kit you have
Old blood on cold one with LA, dawnstone + ToP and OTS and GW. That would put fear into even a WoC character I bet. And since they have to challenge, if you have him in the TG unit with a champ, you can pick your matchups a bit. Or run him solo.

Did you really need the skink priest? Maybe drop him for the added points if necessary, but otherwise, keep him with heavens
Scar vet cowboy, cold one, GW, AoD

Core of either all skinks or, if your heart is dead set on it, saurus plus skinks (I just don't see the saurus doing enough damage without beasts or light or shadow to help).

TG as big as you can afford, but 25 should be fine

Sally if you have the points after deciding to keep or not keep the skink priest and how large of a TG block you feel is necessary.

That seems pretty solid to me, and will make things a lot tougher for that WoC player.

 

[Scalenex]

Well a couple things happened. The tourney organizer said that the Lore of Undeath cannot use proxies so that torpedoed my Undeath list.

The WoC player decided his list would be unfun to play against and softened it up a lot

I played his softer Daemon list and still lost. I played a pretty vanilla list with a Focus of Mystery Slann. I got the building first by using Walk Between Worlds with my Slann on Irresistible Force. So 23 Temple Guard turned into 12.

After the game, my friend/opponent asked "why do you have to get to the building first when you can charge it with 20 flaming PF attacks?" He recommended I run with a WD Slann, because I miscast six times altogether (two of them were caused by the Arcane Ruins channeling, the building was randomly determined to also count as Arcane Ruins.).

There are no bonus points for taking the building first. You get points for taking the building at all and points for holding the building on the last turn. Taking the building first and holding it all game will deny my opponent the bonus points but what good is that if I lose the battle?

Put a couple small tweaks in, and decided that I should go on a Saurus Warrior fast for a while because they tend to die embarassing deaths.

List Version 4 or 5 (I lost count)

Slann, BSB, Standard of Discipline, Channeling Staff, Egg of Quango, Soul of Stone, Wandering Deliberations, Harmonic Convergence, Becalming Cognition
Saurus Oldblood, Armor of Destiny, Dawnstone, Sword of Might, Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness
L1 Skink Priest with Heavens and Dispel Scroll

26 Cohort Skinks with 3 Kroxigor and Full Command
13 Skink Skirmishers with Patrol Leader
13 Skink Skirmishers with Patrol Leader

31 Temple Guard with Full Command, Gold Sigil Sword, Banner of Eternal Flame

Salamander with Snack
Salamander with Snack

 

[GhostWarrior]

Silly question - but how did you lose 11 Temple Guard from that miscast? If you used WBW to move into the building, you wouldn't suffer the miscast until that point - at which time you'd likely lose 4ish TG (since template only causes D6).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

If you used WBW to move into the building, you wouldn't suffer the miscast until that point - at which time you'd likely lose 4ish TG (since template only causes D6).

That's a good strategy; using a building to mitigate the miscast damage on the temple guard.

 

[Scalenex]

Silly question - but how did you lose 11 Temple Guard from that miscast? If you used WBW to move into the building, you wouldn't suffer the miscast until that point - at which time you'd likely lose 4ish TG (since template only causes D6).

Oops, you are right, I should have only lost d6 Temple Guard. Still would have lost the game though. My army outside the building got picked apart then he hammered my Temple Guard pretty hard.