AoS NEW *rumor*

[ChapterAquila92]

A list alone will not win you any games but you can't win unless your list is good.

All we know is that two players got to play in a small tournament that allowed the new book. Both players played a very similar list. The players took 1st and 2nd place.

The list they picked is probably a good list. I expect to see a lot of similar lists showing up. In the next few weeks we will know more as more tournaments allow the book. A lot of people were saying the book is a 3-2, 4-1 book at best. I think the book is pretty good and has play on both sides so let's sit back and see as more results come in.

That doesn't address anything I just said. The only thing it suggests is that they brought sufficient tools to a tournament to play reasonably well across multiple different mission types in the hands of a reasonably competent player.

What missions those were, as well as which and how units proved their worth as tools the player has at their disposal, can only be elaborated on in actual battle reports, not tournament results.

 

[Lambs and Lions]

I know every new tome gets "cookie cutter" lists as players test them out, but one of my concerns is that there isn't much else worth taking on the Starborne side by way of Artefact or Command Trait. You might see players toying around with unit choices, but the bones of every Starborne list will virtually always be a Slann general with Lord of Celestial Resonance and a Spacefolder's Stave. The other options are almost so "meh" that even in a casual game you'd ask "why am I taking this?"

Keep in mind that agrodons were just released yesterday so most people do not have them for list building. That may also be the reason there were no spawn of chotec as well.

 

[Togetic]

How expensive are the made to order models usually? Kroak and Tehenuin both call to me, but my wallet would ache if they’re modern GW prices

 

[Togetic]

Oops. ended up double-posting by accident, but I will also say that I appreciate the turnaround on Raptadons recently. It seemed pretty doom and gloom about them to begin with, but now it feels like people are really getting into them as a staple of starborne lists

 

[Vallis]

I think we're going to see a lot of that as people figure out the new army.

People weren't into the Spawn of Chotec at first because it doesn't dish out mortal wounds like the old salamander or because its long range attack is unreliable. But people have started to realize that its 12" attack from behind a screen or before charging into melee is still pretty good, especially for the cost, and its 24" attack is worth a try when it would otherwise be idle.

I'm starting to see people shift their opinion about Aggradons too — which are also pretty cheap — now that the model is out and we can use them. At 210 points, we can bring a lot of them (but at $20 per model list price, it's hard to bring a lot).

 

[Togetic]

The spawn of chotec is something i found really interesting to think about when i played my first 3rd ed game against someone running huge blocks of clanrats, I found them really hard to get around with the standard trog bomb (sans kroak) setup, though i did fail to cast like 60% of all my spells so It wasn’t ideal conditions. Slapping the serpent staff on a spawn of chotec seems like it might be an easy way to shred through chaff if you can shoot and charge into them, especially since the little friends are all extensions of the model that can be maneuvered around freely

 

[Lambs and Lions]

I think the problem with the spawn is how people look at it.

They see the spawn as a monster killer who only has a 50/50 shot and a secondary option to kill hoards if the get too close. But in actuality the spawn is a short range screen shredder that then charges in to thing behind the screen that also has the secondary option of globing a flame across the board if needed.

Serpent staff on spawn is pretty bad though as you are only likely to get one or two MWs.

 

[Vexcor]

I think we're going to see a lot of that as people figure out the new army.

People weren't into the Spawn of Chotec at first because it doesn't dish out mortal wounds like the old salamander or because its long range attack is unreliable. But people have started to realize that it's it's 12" attack from behind a screen or before charging into melee is still pretty good, especially for the cost, and its 24" attack is worth a try when it would otherwise be idle.

I'm starting to see people shift their opinion about Aggradons too — which are also pretty cheap — now that the model is out and we can use them. At 210 points, we can bring a lot of them (but at $20 per model list price, it's hard to bring a lot).

think you are correct about the aggrodons. For 210 points you get some descent fast cav which hit decent hard and have the potential to shift the opponent from important targets to them. its like a win win unit. He ignores them, then he can loose important pices to them or he focus down them, which is fine, the rest of our stuff is safe

 

[Vallis]

I just had an interesting thought about Aggradons and Primal Rage. Here's a trick that may be difficult to pull off, but worth it if it can be done. Imagine this scenario:

Reinforced Aggradons charge in and severly damage an enemy, but some models remain. At the end of the combat phase, the Primal Rage check occurs, and since the Aggradons are in combat, they get +1 Rage.

On our next turn (maybe it's a double turn), we hatch a plan. Through spells or shooting, we finish off the enemy the Aggradons are in combat with. (If the enemy was killed through spells, the Aggradon would be a good target for Heavenly Frenzy so they can run and charge with their natural +1 to run and +1 to charge.) They still have their Rage, because Rage only adjusts at the end of combat.

In the charge phase, the Aggradons charge another enemy unit entering combat at +1 Rage. If they are once again stuck in combat at the end of the combat phase, they'll be at +2 Rage.

This trick won't always be easy to pull off, but could potentially be done repeatedly to maintain their Rage score and keep their attack characteristic high. But it's a good trick to have in one's back pocket in case the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Kilvakar]

I think we're going to see a lot of that as people figure out the new army.

People weren't into the Spawn of Chotec at first because it doesn't dish out mortal wounds like the old salamander or because its long range attack is unreliable. But people have started to realize that its 12" attack from behind a screen or before charging into melee is still pretty good, especially for the cost, and its 24" attack is worth a try when it would otherwise be idle.

I'm starting to see people shift their opinion about Aggradons too — which are also pretty cheap — now that the model is out and we can use them. At 210 points, we can bring a lot of them (but at $20 per model list price, it's hard to bring a lot).

I never really though Aggradons were bad. I'm excited to try them out!

I think the issue a lot of people have is that everything in the book (with the exception of a few utterly terrible units) just seems....ok. Nothing stands out as being particularly strong, while at the same time not being particularly bad either. There are no combos except Trog Bomb that stand out at first look to be amazing, game-winning strategies. Nothing can be buffed up to amazing levels anymore, but pretty much everything got a baseline increase in strength, which is honestly what I've personally been wanting for a long time.

Raptadons are very point-efficient and with regular Skinks just becoming essentially screen units I think they'll be the backbone of a lot of Starborne lists. Saurus Warriors and Aggradons will probably be the backbone of most Coalesced lists, with maybe a support dino thrown in here and there. (The dino nerfs are the only thing I'm disappointed about so far, it was not necessary to kill the Engine of the Gods and make the Stegadon so expensive as to make it not worth taking.)

Kroxigors were already decent, and are somewhat better now. Ripperdactyls aren't amazing but are actually worth using in some lists again, the new Chameleon Skinks (Hunters of Huanchi) are basically the same as they were before, with maybe a slight improvement. In our previous book about half the army was just not worth taking most of the time. In the new one, pretty much everything except Stegadons is at least worth using in some lists. We're just used to the typical GW style of making armies where there's a couple units that are essentially an auto-include in every army and only a couple competitive lists to build around those units. Our new book is a lot more... basic, for lack of a better term, than our previous one. But at least the majority of our army's remaining models (RIP all the ones that got canned) are for the most part playable outside of pure meme lists. Seraphon was always a glass cannon army, we could buff up our damage to insane levels but folded to any pressure. I think the main change of our new book (at a very basic level, there's obviously more to it) is that our baseline power and survivability went up, and our ceiling for crazy damage output went down.

I do think that Seraphon is a high B-tier army, and the book was definitely a reaction to the whining about how "OP" we were before. We have a lot more bad matchups than we did before, and winning tournaments is going to be hard with how blatantly unbalanced some of the other books have been lately. But at least in this situation we shouldn't have to worry about all our good stuff getting nerfed and hopefully the other OP armies get brought back into line and things get balanced out a bit better soon.

 

[Acehilator]

The main problem with the book is that listbuilding is like pulling teeth. Nothing fits together. All characters are either overpriced or weaksauce, several are both. Slann or Kroak being mandatory even in Coalesced = failed game design. Astrolith Bearer + Temple Guard tax is just a sh!tshow. Even when forgoing all that for a pure Saurus list for the lolz = still impotent. Not enough bodies, not enough pressure.

Waiting for the first balance pass, but looks like my box is going to end up on ebay, unopened.

 

[Vallis]

The main problem with the book is that listbuilding is like pulling teeth. Nothing fits together. All characters are either overpriced or weaksauce, several are both. Slann or Kroak being mandatory even in Coalesced = failed game design. Astrolith Bearer + Temple Guard tax is just a sh!tshow. Even when forgoing all that for a pure Saurus list for the lolz = still impotent. Not enough bodies, not enough pressure.

Waiting for the first balance pass, but looks like my box is going to end up on ebay, unopened.

While I agree some costs need to be adjusted, I really don't think the situation is so dire. I'm not convinced a Slann is required in Coalesced, and neither do some of the top players interviewed on various YouTube channels.

You are not forced to take the Astrolith Bearer and Saurus Guard, and many of the big Coalesced lists out there don't.

In Starborne, if you want to build the perfect castle for Kroak and a Starmaster, then sure, you're going to use up most of your points; you can't have it all, so you need to make hard choices. Do you want three units of Saurus Guard that can continuously absorb wounds for the Slann and be healed with Azure Light each turn, or is it better to take just one and invest in some Raptadon Chargers to capture objectives?

An army of mostly Saurus Warriors in Coalesced can absorb a lot of wounds, especially with Scaly Skin. They are decent anvils for the cost. Aggradons are our hammers, and while they're not the best hammers or there, they're also pretty inexpensive. Now that the model is out people will see what they can do, and I think they will outperform what a lot of people think as we figure them out.

But Seraphon have never been the strongest soldiers. Starborne are maneuverable and have very strong magic. Coalesced are pretty tough but still have a potent magic game. Our shooting got ruined down a bit, but we have more wounds, more rend, better monster bracketing and better spells. We have a lot of really interesting buffs, debuffs and combos; understanding those and learning to master them will be essential to playing with our new battletome.

But I did one an quite optimistic.

 

[PabloTho]

An army of mostly Saurus Warriors in Coalesced can absorb a lot of wounds, especially with Scaly Skin. They are decent anvils for the cost. Aggradons are our hammers, and while they're not the best hammers or there, they're also pretty inexpensive. Now that the model is out people will see what they can do, and I think they will outperform what a lot of people think as we figure them out.

But Seraphon have never been the strongest solidiers.

I agree on most points but think Aggradons are anything but inexpensive for what they bring to the table. For a unit which is ostensibly a hammer, the Primal Rage ability encourages them to be used for prolonged combats which they don't really have the durability to pull off. Even a double reinforced unit will be eviscerated by most armies if the opponent is aware they will get more attacks the longer they stay alive. They're torn between two roles which I think leads to an artificially inflated point cost, and the result being a unit which does a half-assed job in both niches.

When compared to heavy cav from other armies - Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Gruntas, even Bounders, they are nowhere near as performant nor as competitively priced.

As you said - you can somewhat justify this by saying Seraphon has never been about strong soldiers, which is true. The issue is that Coalesced subfactions are basically designed around using our units as though they are strong soldiers. Koatl's Claw expects you to charge your way to victory with an predominantly Saurus/Kroxigor based army. I agree that Warriors are a fantastic anvil but don't believe our other Saurus or Krox units have the output or point efficiency to fill the missing roles in the army.

You can't even supplement this with chip damage in casting from a Slann because his offensive spell lore in Coalesced is atrocious. You can fall back on Kroak instead but by the time you've added all the bells and whistles needed to let him shine (Astro, Guard, Cogs) you don't have that much points left for Saurus and might as well be playing Starborne.

And don't get me started on Thunder Lizard, which may be the worst monster-based subfaction ever introduced to the game, which also expects you to rely some of the most poorly written (Engine of the Gods) and least point effective (Stegadon, more engine of the Gods) monsters to ever make it past playtesting.

I am very aware that I may sound hysterical or like I'm overreacting. I actually don't think the book is quite as bad as many have said, I just think the Starborne / Coalesced internal balancing is a mess. Starborne likely has some A-tier or S-tier builds floating around but I strongly suspect Coalesced is condemned to the middle tables, even though any adjustments to dial back lists like the Trog bomb will likely punish Coalesced builds too.

I will be overjoyed to be proven wrong and am excited to see if Coalesced can succeed and what those builds look like, but can't say I'm optimistic. The book has dropped in a very spicy meta and time will tell whether we can hang with the big boys.

 

[Lambs and Lions]

To be fair complaining that you have to take a Slann in coalesced is a weak argument as very list last book has a Slann in it too. Lore wise every army should have a Slann as well.

I have been saying this for a while but we don't know how telepathic summoning will be FAQd but as written their is a very powerful coalesced list teleporting suarus warriors into your opponents army and then using agrodons and carnosaur with double move to chew their flanks.

As for thunderlizards I feel that they were close but missed the mark. If they just made a rule that the same monstrous action could be used more than once it would be very strong.

 

[Canas]

I think the problem with the spawn is how people look at it.

They see the spawn as a monster killer who only has a 50/50 shot and a secondary option to kill hoards if the get too close. But in actuality the spawn is a short range screen shredder that then charges in to thing behind the screen that also has the secondary option of globing a flame across the board if needed.

Meh, regardless of the intent, single shot high damage low reliability attacks just aren't fun, neither for you or the victim. Due to their swingy nature they are annoying to play around for both players.

And if their intention was to make him an anti-horde shredder I'd rather seen them go all in and actually commit to it. Instead of this weird mixed profile where it looks like it's trying to do everything at once.

I am very aware that I may sound hysterical or like I'm overreacting. I actually don't think the book is quite as bad as many have said, I just think the Starborne / Coalesced internal balancing is a mess. Starborne likely has some A-tier or S-tier builds floating around but I strongly suspect Coalesced is condemned to the middle tables, even though any adjustments to dial back lists like the Trog bomb will likely punish Coalesced builds too.

This is always going to be a problem as long as we have our mixed book. Coalesced and Starborne are too different to really be balanced together as subfactions sharing the same models.

 

[Killer Angel]

And if their intention was to make him an anti-horde shredder I'd rather seen them go all in and actually commit to it. Instead of this weird mixed profile where it looks like it's trying to do everything at once.

...and ending in being mediocre at both.

 

[Canas]

...and ending in being mediocre at both.

Honestly, even if he was great at all roles, the lack of focus just kinda sucks.

 

[Killer Angel]

Honestly, even if he was great at all roles, the lack of focus just kinda sucks.

you have a point

 

[Kilvakar]

So I got my first game with the new rules in, against Khorne with a Goretide list using 2 Slaughterpriests, 3 units of 20 Blood Warriors, Korghos Khul, Valkia the Bloody, and a Bloodstoker and Bloodsecrator and 5 Wrathmongers.

It was an utter grindfest, lol! I used a Saurus Koatl's Claw list with 2 units of 20 Saurus Warriors, 2 units of 3 Aggradons, an Oldblood on Carnosaur, a Starpriest, Starseer and Oldblood on on foot and a unit of Terrawings to use up points.

We called it a draw after turn 3, both agreeing that victory would come down to whoever got double turns or not.

Some first impressions:

Saurus Warriors are great. They were tanky and did a very decent amount of damage. The 3+ save when contesting objectives is really good, and throwing buffs like Mystic Shield, the Oldblood's +1 to hit and wound from all-out attack, and the Skink Starpriest buff were very helpful.

Aggradons are definitely just ok. With the Oldblood using Vengeful Defender they were definitely able to alpha strike, but they didn't have the damage output or staying power needed to last more than 2 turns, as a lot of people have theorized. Maybe with more buffs focused on them they could have done better. But they did fulfill their role of rushing the enemy line turn 1 and tying them up in deployment long enough for me to take a substantial lead in objective points early on.

Oldblood on foot has a pretty nice role and finally lets us participate in activation wars.

Oldblood on Carnosaur's double command point ability is awesome, but his attacks are even less reliable. I was excited after they added rend, but they reduced the number of jaw attacks even further and his 4+ save might as well not exist with all the rend and mortal wounds Khorne was throwing around. He died after dealing a bit of damage to Korghos Khul and didn't really accomplish much. If you manage not to roll garbage with your jaw attacks, he'll wreck face. If you don't have a +1 to hit and a decent amount of luck on your side, he's basically an expensive support piece.

Skink wizards are actually really terrible at casting without support now. The only spells I managed to cast were mystic shield and arcane bolt. The Skink spells being at casting value 7 are pretty hard for a wizard with no casting bonuses to get off.

Terrawings were not good. They never got their scream off, and the only thing they did was kind of make my opponent have to think twice before leaving an objective unguarded. Which is very good tactically, but given that they were not capable of damaging anything they didn't contribute anything else.

I won't go into a full battle report, but essentially I threw the Aggradons and Carnosaur up into Khorne's lines turn 1, and moved the two Saurus Warrior units onto key objectives. One unit of Warriors supported by the Oldblood on foot and Starpriest cleaned up the Wrathmongers and a unit of Blood Warriors and held a key objective very well. The other unit basically traded evenly with a unit of Blood Warriors when neither unit had much support.

The Aggradons held out for a couple turns but didn't do nearly as much damage as I would have hoped. One unit managed to finish off Khul after the Carnosaur weakened him, and the other one was basically overwhelmed by the third unit of 20 Blood Warriors.

The Starseer's ward save buff was basically useless. Maybe saved me 1-2 wounds. Starpriest's staff buff isn't nearly as good as it used to be when we were rolling 30+ attacks on a unit buffed with it. Neither wizard got any lore spells or warscroll spells off, just mystic shield and arcane bolt.

After turn 3 I held a massive lead in points, but I had lost my Carnosaur, all the Aggradons, and about half of each of the Warrior units. Meanwhile, I had only managed to finish off Khul, a Slaughterpriest and one unit of Blood Warriors. A nearly full-strength unit of Blood Warriors, the Bloodstoker and Bloodsecrator and Valkia all remained. We mathed it out and decided that if at any time I double-turned I would have been able to maintain my lead, but if not Khorne would pretty much wipe my army and barely manage to recover on victory points by turn 5. Odds slightly in my favor but still very, very close.

Overall, I know I need a LOT More practice with the new book. But the thing that stands out to me the most is that everything is sooo expensive now! Listbuilding is extremely hard and it feels like the size of the army has nearly been cut by a third or more with how much everything costs. When compared to Khorne, every unit they had that fulfilled similar roles and had similar stats was less expensive, had more buffs or more easily accessible buffs, and more and better special abilities than Seraphon. Blood Warriors are cheaper than Saurus, have a native 3+ save, can choose between more attacks or the chance of bouncing mortals back on your enemy, and can hit you for even more mortals when they die. Kind of ridiculous when you think about a unit doing all that and still costing 10 points less than our Warriors.

A 285 point unit (Carnosaur) was pretty much wiped by a single prayer (Bloodboil is insanely overpowered) and a follow-up attack from a foot hero that cost 160 points. Lots of other armies have heroes with built-in ward saves and artifacts with ward saves, we have only 2 sources of wards and one is once per battle. Khorne's Blood Tithe points were used to both buff his troops and drop more mortal wounds on mine. I feel I would have done better in the grinding department if every single unit that died wasn't rolling to deal mortals to me after death. Also this was yet another game where my Carnosaur did nothing. I was hoping the upgrades would have made a difference, but it's still an over-costed support piece.

I do think that Khorne specifically is kind of a hard counter to Seraphon, both Starborne and Coalesced. I'm looking forward to seeing how it does against other armies but I do think that literally everything Khorne has counters our abilities very well.

 

[Canas]

Overall, I know I need a LOT More practice with the new book. But the thing that stands out to me the most is that everything is sooo expensive now! Listbuilding is extremely hard and it feels like the size of the army has nearly been cut by a third or more with how much everything costs. When compared to Khorne, every unit they had that fulfilled similar roles and had similar stats was less expensive, had more buffs or more easily accessible buffs, and more and better special abilities than Seraphon. Blood Warriors are cheaper than Saurus, have a native 3+ save, can choose between more attacks or the chance of bouncing mortals back on your enemy, and can hit you for even more mortals when they die. Kind of ridiculous when you think about a unit doing all that and still costing 10 points less than our Warriors.

It's cuz basicly our entire army can be summoned. Everything has to deal with a summon tax... Yet at the same time, summoning only works in one subfaction. It makes for some very weird balancing when compared to other armies.

But at least we now finally have some halfway decent stat-lines, so at least that's something.