AoS Seraphon 3.0 - How should we build?

[PabloTho]

So the ruleset for third edition has been released, and a lot of the synergies we're used to will longer be viable.

- Modifiers being capped at +/-1 and hordes limited to 30 models means Skinks lose fair bit of their output
- New coherency rules reduce the effectiveness of Skinks as a screen, and how easily we'll pile mobs of Warriors and Knights into combat
- Salamander squad size capped at 2, meaning we won't be quite as efficient at LoSaT'ing and melting key targets
- No stacking of command abilities has big ramifications for Thunder Lizard and Koatl's Claw
- Thunder Lizard and Koatl's Claw also suffer from the loss of warscroll battalions (extra attacks given by Thunderquake, extra rend given by Sunclaw)

With these changes (and many others) in mind, how do we think our strong lists will be looking in 3rd edition? While we don't know what our points costs are at this stage, I think we can start identifying which units have potential and which can be written off.

I myself am thinking Kroxigors might start sneaking into more lists - while the extra attacks from a Thunderquake are sorely missed, their warscroll is decent at a baseline level (2" range means they're usable in 6's) they otherwise aren't punished by other changes coming with 3rd.

The new universal prayers also make our Priest even more useful, handing out mortal wounds on 6's to hit. We'll be able to stack this on the units that already benefit from the Starpriest's venom staff (Skinks, Knights) for another damage boost.

 

[Blitzkriyg]

Depending on changes in the ghb, my first will remain relatively the same. Kroak, Astro, Starpriest, priest, 1x30 skinks, 5 guard, 3x2 salamanders and then fill the rest of the points with units of 10 skinks

 

[PabloTho]

Depending on changes in the ghb, my first will remain relatively the same. Kroak, Astro, Starpriest, priest, 1x30 skinks, 5 guard, 3x2 salamanders and then fill the rest of the points with units of 10 skinks

If I had to guess, we'll see points increases for Skinks and Skink Priests (or maybe everything, if the rumors are true). Might mean we'll have to make some hard choices as to what gets left behind.

 

[Nart]

While we don't know what our points costs are at this stage, I think we can start identifying which units have potential and which can be written off.

Actually, no, the points is the main decisive factor. If saurus will suddenly be 60 for 10, I bet we won't be throwing them in the bin even after all nerfs.

If we assume that internal balance of the points is more or less the same, nothing really changes much.

No more 40 skinks block? 30 skinks were viable even at 2.0. Lost 20 shots? Now they can overwatch. 5+ save cap? Ok, you can make it 5+ with ignore rend -2 without much effort. Cap on salamanders? They will go MSU and still go from heavens in DT. Cannot double-tap bastiladons? But now you can make them virtually unkillable with save stack and healing. They also can overwatch. Etc., etc.

I think, the problem is that most of our good stuff remainded good and our bad stuff got even worse. Instea of archieving diversity, GW did quite the opposite.

 

[Killer Angel]

So the ruleset for third edition has been released, and a lot of the synergies we're used to will longer be viable.

to help with this, I'm gonna compile a reference chart with all the bonuses granted by CA, spells, prayers and so on, included in the new 3.0 rules.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

to help with this, I'm gonna compile a reference chart with all the bonuses granted by CA, spells, prayers and so on, included in the new 3.0 rules.

this would be very helpful. cheat sheets are great

 

[Tyranitar]

Just a quick note as I've seen a couple people mention this, the priest curse that has a unit take mortals on a 6 has to target an enemy unit within 9" and any to hit rolls against that unit inflict a mw on a 6. It's not a buff that we put on our unit that then has them deal mortals on a 6 to hit. So our priest would need to be within 9" of an enemy unit to use it, and it's on a 4+. Still a decent option but not as good as if we could target our own unit from a safe position.

As far as initial thoughts, I'll probably start with either thunder lizard with bastiladons and stegs or DT with something like Kroak, Slann, AB, Oracle on Trog, 5-10 guard, 4-6 sallies, and some 10x skink units. I think the DT list will be a solid starting point, it didn't lose much from what I can tell, comparatively

 

[Lizerd]

3rd edition seems to be quite biased towards a few things
- monsters
- elite infantry
- heroes

broadly speaking i favor the idea that coalesced have won out here more than starborne, that said we still took some hits.
I would argue we should focus on things we've done well on consistently, several monsters and spamming mortal wounds. Carnosaurs and stegadons win big here, with the basti a bit behind due to its lackluster melee. Also consider curse, while we cant make 40 skink blobs, we can get 2 blocks of 20, or 30 and 10. Given the starpriest and skink priest you're taking, this is a worthwhile consideration to dish out mortal wounds.

all said, this is kinda dumb speculation and nobody can definitively predict the meta before we get our claws on the next ghb

 

[NecridHydra]

Until we have our new points we can only make assumptions.

Maybe Skinks go up to a MSU of 20 and they are no longer a viable screen, cost-wise, but become more efficient at blobs of 60.

However, I think someof us will use some units backing other to Unleash Hell over an enemy charge.

Monster have become more useful, so KC and TL are more powerful, but we need a warscroll update because of the old battalion. Overall, we need more rend on our melee units. It's hard to believe the rend Carnosaur has or there's not a -2 on any attack a Stegadon has (not saying he has to have -2 on everything but Stomps or Horns should at least).

 

[Killer Angel]

Overall, we need more rend on our melee units.

Eh, that was painfully clear since the beginning.
There's a limit to what you can obtain with mere saturation, if you face 2+ or 3+ rerollable.

and with the new editin, EVERY unit of every army has become sturdier. Heroes can heal, dead models can be resurrected...

 

[Killer Angel]

The more i read the rules, the more I'm convinced that staking effect is one of the trickiest part.

things as to hit and to wound cannot exceed +1 or -1, but you can stack 2 sources of +1 to hit, to overcome a malus.
(source: page 4, bottom left: "some dice rolls, such as hit and wound rolls, will specify that the roll cannot be modified by more than +1 or -1. When this is the case, add up all the modifiers that apply, and if the total is more than +1 or -1, treat it as being either +1 or -1 as appropriate."

so, if your stegadon chief is charging something that gives a -1 to hit, makes sense to use a Their Finest Hour (heroic action) combined with All out attack (Command Ability).

by this reasoning, the same can be said for bonuses to saves.
A save roll cannot be modified by more than +1, but can be modified by more than -1.
If i stack bonuses to have a +2 to saves (Their finest hour + All out defence), i will only have a max +1
Rend modifies my save roll
If i have a +1 save, a rend -3 will impose a -2 to my save.
but if i have a +2 to save, a rend -3 will impose just a -1

Stacking different sources of the same bonus, even to things that cannot go over +1 / -1, is going to be crucial.

 

[NecridHydra]

A save roll cannot be modified by more than +1, but can be modified by more than -1.
If i stack bonuses to have a +2 to saves (Their finest hour + All out defence), i will only have a max +1
Rend modifies my save roll
If i have a +1 save, a rend -3 will impose a -2 to my save.
but if i have a +2 to save, a rend -3 will impose just a -1

I think I'm not understanding what do you mean but I'll try to explain what I do understand from the rules. Save is capped to +1 and 1+, even if different sources gives you a +3. As you said, having a +2 on a characteristic only serves to overcome a malus (for example being hit by an enemie's Starseer spell).

A save roll cannot be modified by more than +1 (this is an exception to the principle that abilities take precedence over core rules). (for reference it's 13.3 Section 3. Save Roll, last sentence.)

Which means, giving a Bastiladon a +1 to save only works to negate a malus. Rend, on the other hand is not a malus, but a modifier, so it works in a way that you take away from the die and then you make a comparison to your die, instead of modifiying your Save as you'd do with your "To Hit".

Rolling a 2 with rend -1 (1s are always a failure) equals to your save (2-1=1). However, rolling a 2 with rend -2 equals to 0 which is less than your save, so you take a wound. We just substract our save and the rend to make things easier but there're times where that doesn't work.

 

[Blitzkriyg]

3rd edition seems to be quite biased towards a few things
- monsters
- elite infantry
- heroes

broadly speaking i favor the idea that coalesced have won out here more than starborne, that said we still took some hits.
I would argue we should focus on things we've done well on consistently, several monsters and spamming mortal wounds. Carnosaurs and stegadons win big here, with the basti a bit behind due to its lackluster melee. Also consider curse, while we cant make 40 skink blobs, we can get 2 blocks of 20, or 30 and 10. Given the starpriest and skink priest you're taking, this is a worthwhile consideration to dish out mortal wounds.

all said, this is kinda dumb speculation and nobody can definitively predict the meta before we get our claws on the next ghb

The problem we have, in my opinion anyway, or heroes and elite infantry aren't up to par with other armies age or monsters are average at best,it's why on aos 2, skink hordes are the most viable option.

 

[Killer Angel]

I think I'm not understanding what do you mean but I'll try to explain what I do understand from the rules. Save is capped to +1 and 1+, even if different sources gives you a +3. As you said, having a +2 on a characteristic only serves to overcome a malus (for example being hit by an enemie's Starseer spell).

A save roll cannot be modified by more than +1 (this is an exception to the principle that abilities take precedence over core rules). (for reference it's 13.3 Section 3. Save Roll, last sentence.)

Which means, giving a Bastiladon a +1 to save only works to negate a malus. Rend, on the other hand is not a malus, but a modifier, so it works in a way that you take away from the die and then you make a comparison to your die, instead of modifiying your Save as you'd do with your "To Hit".

Rolling a 2 with rend -1 (1s are always a failure) equals to your save (2-1=1). However, rolling a 2 with rend -2 equals to 0 which is less than your save, so you take a wound. We just substract our save and the rend to make things easier but there're times where that doesn't work.

I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Bastiladon is a very peculiar thing, and i believe it will be clarified once again.

but normally, to hit, to wound, save and rend works in the same way. They are all modifiers (positive / negative)
in the section 13.3, they are all treated in the same way:
A hit roll cannot be modified by more than +1 or -1 (this is an exception to the principle that abilities take precedence over core rules).
A wound roll cannot be modified by more than +1 or -1 (this is an exception to the principle that abilities take precedence over core rules)
A save roll cannot be modified by more than +1 (this is an exception to the principle that abilities take precedence over core rules).
The save roll is modified by the attacking weapon’s Rend characteristic.
Save rolls can be modified by more than -1.

we talk about maluses / bonuses, but these terms don't really exist, are not in the core rules. They are all modifiers that happen after the roll.

 

[PabloTho]

Points are up people. Grim tiding for Oldblood, Troglodon and Stegadon fans - all received massive hikes.

Engine of the Gods | +5
Saurus Guard |+15
Saurus Warrior | +15
Saurus Knights|+10|
Skinks|+15|
Bastilodon with Ark of Sotek|-35|
Bastilodon with Solar Engine|+15|
Stegadon|+25|
Starblood Stalkers|0|
Lord Kroak|0|
Ripperdactyl Chief|+5|
Saurus Astrolith Bearer|+10|
Saurus Eternity Warden|+15|
Saurus Oldblood|+10|
Saurus-Scar Veteran on Cold One|0|
Sarus Sunblood|-5|
Skink Priest|+10|
Skink Starpriest|+10|
Skink Starseer|+5|
Slann Starmaster|+5|
Terradon Chief|+10|
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur|+50|
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur|+5|
Skink Oracle on Troglodon|+50|
Stegadon with Skink Chief|+55|
Chameleon Skinks|+25|
Kroxigor|+10|
Razordon Hunting Pack|+15|
Ripperdactly Riders|+15|
Salamander Hunting Pack|+10|
Terradon Riders|+25|

 

[Tyranitar]

The +50 on the trog is mind blowing. I think the oldblood on carno went up 40 as well, he used to be 230 and is now 270. I'm hoping the oldblood will be getting a new command ability with errata, I can't see how 270 points makes sense otherwise. I've also seen people guess that the trog may get the priest keyword which might justify the 50 point increase a bit more.

Regardless, here's where I'll be starting for 3rd edition:
Kroak
Slann
Astrolith bearer
Trog
10 saurus guard
2 salamanders
2 salamanders
10 skinks
10 skinks

Starborne Dracothian's Tail

This is 1965 points so some room for tweaks. I have to look at possible battalions and also am considering trying an eternity warden with the 5+ ward artifact in place of 5 guard. Also haven't looked into endless spells really, I think the soulsnare shackles sounded good

 

[PabloTho]

@Tyranitar with Modifiers capped at +1 I really can't see a justification for the Oldblood to go up so much and the Scar Vet to stay more or less the same. I hope you're spot on about an errata - would be pretty great if he got a +1 attack CA but for Saurus (would mirror the Steg Chief quite nicely).

 

[Tyranitar]

@Tyranitar with Modifiers capped at +1 I really can't see a justification for the Oldblood to go up so much and the Scar Vet to stay more or less the same. I hope you're spot on about an errata - would be pretty great if he got a +1 attack CA but for Saurus (would mirror the Steg Chief quite nicely).

That would be excellent. Whenever I get around to playing my KC list again I'll be trying out a sunblood as well. I was already considering this with the new rules we were seeing and not being able to stack modifiers so their CA fit nicely, and they actually went down in points which is great.

 

[Lizerd]

@Tyranitar with Modifiers capped at +1 I really can't see a justification for the Oldblood to go up so much and the Scar Vet to stay more or less the same. I hope you're spot on about an errata - would be pretty great if he got a +1 attack CA but for Saurus (would mirror the Steg Chief quite nicely).

the reason you take the old blood is for damage imho, they hit like a bus

 

[Erta Wanderer]

the reason you take the old blood is for damage imho, they hit like a bus

damage difference is 4ish the reason you take him is because he is cool.