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AoS NEW *rumor*

I think having evil order factions is a good idea. I think it’s better that order isn’t just sunshine and good guys. At its core the order faction just means opposed to chaos and not dead, so DoK still meets that criteria. Unless they changed it and now they like Slaanesh, but it seems like Morathi was more interested in becoming a god than her hatred for slaanesh, which seems in line for her to try and acquire ultimate power no matter the consequences.
 
O sure, order factions don't have to be all sunshine and rainbows. But DoK are barely distinguishable from followers of Khorne. Both basicly just go around murdering as many people as they can to appease their god, with the main goal just being to spill as much blood as possible. Both are the violent berserker type of fighters. Both rely on blood sacrifices. Both adore gladiatoral fighting pits. Also they both hate Slaanesh. Culturally there's very little difference between the two factions.

The only difference is that DoK don't mind subterfuge & magic whereas Khorne finds spies and magic lame.
 
Canas said:
O sure, order factions don't have to be all sunshine and rainbows. But DoK are barely distinguishable from followers of Khorne. Both basicly just go around murdering as many people as they can to appease their god, with the main goal just being to spill as much blood as possible. Both are the violent berserker type of fighters. Both rely on blood sacrifices. Both adore gladiatoral fighting pits. Also they both hate Slaanesh. Culturally there's very little difference between the two factions.

The only difference is that DoK don't mind subterfuge & magic whereas Khorne finds spies and magic lame.
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Right, but you couldn't slot them into chaos because they don't worship chaos. You can't slot them into death because, well, they aren't undead. And you can't slot them into destruction because apparently that's only for ogre/giant/orc type creatures.

Kinda only leaves order for them to be a part of. Think its more of a practical inclusion than an ideological one.
 
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Putzfrau said:
Right, but you couldn't slot them into chaos because they don't worship chaos. You can't slot them into death because, well, they aren't undead. And you can't slot them into destruction because apparently that's only for ogre/giant/orc type creatures.

Kinda only leaves order for them to be a part of.
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meh, I'd say they'd still fit in better with chaos. They worship a goddess who's hellbent on the dominion of all else, as opposed to (semi-)peacefull coexistance with others. Whereas the rest of order is at least willing to be peacefull(-ish) neighbours to eachother.

But yeah, they're the only ones who'd never show up in say a slaves to darkness/chaos undivided army.
 
Canas said:
The other gods are free.

Up till now Slaanesh had been imprisoned. This meant that his/her/its followers were weaker. Leaving the hedonites as the weakest chaos group. The main thing the Hedonites where doing was either try to free Slaanesh or take his/her/its place as a god.

Presumably with Slaanesh free again the hedonites will become more powerfull and organised and assault the various aelfs so Slaanesh can eat them again.
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I’m not sure we can consider Slaanesh free just because their child is, we don’t really know whether the child is actual godling offspring, an avatar, or some kind of new being of a different kind.

The actual Slaanesh and their “true body” is still bound and caged by the aelves, even if there is now a remote control avatar walking the realms
 
Togetic said:
I’m not sure we can consider Slaanesh free just because their child is, we don’t really know whether the child is actual godling offspring, an avatar, or some kind of new being of a different kind.

The actual Slaanesh and their “true body” is still bound and caged by the aelves, even if there is now a remote control avatar walking the realms
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Same end-result though; the hedonites will become more powerfull and organised and start to assault more aelfs :p
 
Canas said:
meh, I'd say they'd still fit in better with chaos. They worship a goddess who's hellbent on the dominion of all else, as opposed to (semi-)peacefull coexistance with others. Whereas the rest of order is at least willing to be peacefull(-ish) neighbours to eachother.

But yeah, they're the only ones who'd never show up in say a slaves to darkness/chaos undivided army.
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But they don't worship chaos. They can't fit into chaos if they don't worship the chaos gods and that's super cut and dry.

Even if ideologically they are similar, they still don't worship chaos.
 
Putzfrau said:
But they don't worship chaos. They can't fit into chaos if they don't worship the chaos gods and that's super cut and dry.

Even if ideologically they are similar, they still don't worship chaos.
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The skaven are in chaos and they don't worship the chaos gods. All GW would have to do is reclassify Marathi as a chaos God and bang There you go
 
Erta Wanderer said:
The skaven are in chaos and they don't worship the chaos gods. All GW would have to do is reclassify Marathi as a chaos God and bang There you go
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They worship the great horned rat who is a chaos god. Also Nurgle for the pestilence clan.

If they reclassify morathi to a chaos god then it definitely removes that problem. But i think that's a pretty enormous "if".
 
Putzfrau said:
But they don't worship chaos. They can't fit into chaos if they don't worship the chaos gods and that's super cut and dry.
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If you don't worship Chaos but act in the same way as chaos does, i see little point in keeping them separate.
But even if, certainly not after you free a Chaos God... at that point you are an ally of chaos, under all point of views.
 
Killer Angel said:
If you don't worship Chaos but act in the same way as chaos does, i see little point in keeping them separate.
But even if, certainly not after you free a Chaos God... at that point you are an ally of chaos, under all point of views.
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Just going off the existing structure, not really making any judgements or personal opinions on whether it makes sense. Every current faction in chaos is a literal worshipper of chaos. To include an army that doesn't literally worship chaos in the chaos faction, regardless of the similarities, would be a stark difference to how the allegiance is currently aligned.

Eldar not only freed, but created a chaos god. No one would consider the dark eldar (or eldar) an ally of chaos.

I think making Morathi a chaos demi god would obvious alleviate any issue, but short of that I think it would be difficult to rationalize their position in the chaos faction.
 
Putzfrau said:
Eldar not only freed, but created a chaos god. No one would consider the dark eldar (or eldar) an ally of chaos.
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I could say that it was unintentional, and they fight it with all their strenght. but that's not the point.

Eldar & friends just fall into the "xeno" cauldron, where you find literally everything.
40k is just divided into Imperium of men, alien races and those that live in the warp. It's a physical distinction.
AoS divisions are set in a more philosophical way.

that said, i agree that Morathy should become a chaos goddes (or demi-goddess), but not to set the issue of DoK classification into a faction.... it's because it would be the logical conlusion of the path she took and the actions she did.
 
Killer Angel said:
I could say that it was unintentional, and they fight it with all their strenght. but that's not the point.

Eldar & friends just fall into the "xeno" cauldron, where you find literally everything.
40k is just divided into Imperium of men, alien races and those that live in the warp. It's a physical distinction.
AoS divisions are set in a more philosophical way.

that said, i agree that Morathy should become a chaos goddes (or demi-goddess), but not to set the issue of DoK classification into a faction.... it's because it would be the logical conlusion of the path she took and the actions she did.
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Dark Eldar are to 40k what DoK are to AoS. I don't think anyone would argue that Dark Eldar should belong to chaos, regardless of their actions. I think there being an existing "xenos" classification is kind of irrelevant, but thats just me.

I'd also question if AoS factions are actually more philosophical. Based on this very argument, i think you could realistically say that aos divisions actually aren't that philosophical unless you're using a very, very generalized "philosophy" to categorize them (e.g. order factions are aligned in their opposition against chaos).

Honestly, they should probably just make a fourth "Aleves" faction and lump all those weirdos together haha.
 
Killer Angel said:
If you don't worship Chaos but act in the same way as chaos does, i see little point in keeping them separate.
But even if, certainly not after you free a Chaos God... at that point you are an ally of chaos, under all point of views.
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Because the defining characteristic of chaos is the worship of chaos gods. In the book is it established that Morathi or any of the DoK like Slaanesh? It seems more as a consequence Morathi does not care about rather than something she aimed to do. Especially since she hates Slaanesh for eating her.
 
Another argument DoK belong in chaos: Morathi is basicly just a daemon prince now, following the stereotypical path of ascension associated with chaos champions. Starting out as a minor follower, going through various trials in which she had to subdue a powerfull entity and absorb its power to fuel her ascension. The only difference with an "average" chaos champion is that her trials started way back in the old world and lasted all the way till now in AoS and the entity she's subdued is Slaanesh themselves instead of a "mere" greater daemon.

Also, do bear in mind she literally started out as a follower of Slaanesh in warhammer fantasy, being the leader of the cults of pleasure. She's basicly Skarbrand; A former champion of a chaos god who rebelled & tried to overthrow their god when she thought she was powerfull enough for that. The only difference is she's so far been more succesfull.

Also the defining characteristic of Chaos is not worshiping chaos gods. Its being obsessed with power and trying to ascend to godhood. The chaos gods are just a vehicle that promises the power to get there. Every single individual, from cultist to daemon to god, within chaos is attempting to become the single most powerfull being in existence. The only reason a cultists worship a chaos god is in hopes of ascending through the ranks.
 
Canas said:
Also the defining characteristic of Chaos is not worshiping chaos gods.
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The defining characteristic of all Allegiance: Chaos factions in aos is worship of chaos gods. That is a fundamental fact, and we can't pretend its otherwise. Like it or not, DoK is not a chaos allegiance (at least not yet) and there is not a single faction within the Chaos allegiance that doesn't overtly and literally worship a chaos god.

That is an undeniable truth of the game as it exists today. If your argument is that it SHOULDN'T be the case, by all means. But you can't redefine the "defining characteristic" because it doesn't suite this new idea you're running with.

I still believe any argument to include DoK into chaos has to start with literally making Morathi some kind of demi god of chaos, OR a crystal clear reasoning as to how DoK fit within the chaos pantheon.

All the aelve factions aren't easily defined within the "good and orderly" space, so I dont think them sacrificing mortals, searching for power, and being overall dicks in general is enough to include them into chaos.
 
Putzfrau said:
They worship the great horned rat who is a chaos god. Also Nurgle for the pestilence clan.

If they reclassify morathi to a chaos god then it definitely removes that problem. But i think that's a pretty enormous "if".
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Know the works of the great horned rat who is NOW a chaos God. He didn't used to be. and if your definition of chaos God is anything that is a manifestation of the warp then that puts us in chaos because sotek is a chaos construct
 
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