Tutorial Seraphon List for GHB2020

[erians]

Salamanders are dead to me. Rend -2 is far less needed now that Petrifex Elite aren't sitting at 3+ or better to save. The mortal wounds are still great, and rend -2 is by no means bad, but with the changes it is back to Razordons or Terradons. Bastiladons also seem like a viable alternative to Salamanders.

You dont think people will just run Katakros Praetorians? People were already playing Katakros and in Praetorians they get a huuuge +1 save bubble.Unless we see a heavy shift to Cav variations I think the lists will be very similar (shit ton of 3+ rerollable infantry).

Celestial Harmony is now mandatory to counter Lumineth Realmlords. Even Starborne Seraphon armies will need to find room for this spell. And seeing as our Skink wizards are brittle it might be worth bringing it twice.

We could always just counter it with a CP, and most lists generate a good amount of them. I guess there aren't any really fantastic spells in the skink lore anyway, so I guess it becomes a good choice against LRL. This is a bit of a RLR sidetrack but I played a few proxy games as LRL and didn't find Cathallars to have a massive impact on my opponents army, they were more useful for avoiding -1 bravery and ignoring BS. Too many hoops to jump through:
- My unit can't get completely wiped, but enough need to die for the bouncing BS to be dangerous
- Target needs to have taken casualties
- Need to roll a 2+
- Opponent can't have any CPs
- Opponent can't have BS immunity, which is pretty darn common
They seem nuts on paper, and when they work they can be amazing, but most of the time you either manage to just ping a small amount of models of the board or you just drain 1 CP off your opponent (which I guess is pretty neat). Obviously needs more testing but that's my initial experience.

 

[LizardWizard]

You dont think people will just run Katakros Praetorians? People were already playing Katakros and in Praetorians they get a huuuge +1 save bubble.Unless we see a heavy shift to Cav variations I think the lists will be very similar (shit ton of 3+ rerollable infantry).



We could always just counter it with a CP, and most lists generate a good amount of them. I guess there aren't any really fantastic spells in the skink lore anyway, so I guess it becomes a good choice against LRL. This is a bit of a RLR sidetrack but I played a few proxy games as LRL and didn't find Cathallars to have a massive impact on my opponents army, they were more useful for avoiding -1 bravery and ignoring BS. Too many hoops to jump through:
- My unit can't get completely wiped, but enough need to die for the bouncing BS to be dangerous
- Target needs to have taken casualties
- Need to roll a 2+
- Opponent can't have any CPs
- Opponent can't have BS immunity, which is pretty darn common
They seem nuts on paper, and when they work they can be amazing, but most of the time you either manage to just ping a small amount of models of the board or you just drain 1 CP off your opponent (which I guess is pretty neat). Obviously needs more testing but that's my initial experience.

Thanks for the comment.

I think Katakros Mortis Praetorians will be the new Petrifex. But, it is now range dependent and requires Katakros to stick to the board. He is admittedly sticky, but is a lot easier to deal 20 wounds to a 2+ rerolling than it was to kill all the Mortek Guard, Harvesters, and Katakros. Honestly I expect to mostly see Mortek Crawler spam.

LRL eating a CP or two a turn is a pretty big deal. Certainly for Seraphon and also for pretty much any destruction army.

 

[Grotpunter]

What the Changes Mean to Me​

Salamanders are dead to me. Rend -2 is far less needed now that Petrifex Elite aren't sitting at 3+ or better to save. The mortal wounds are still great, and rend -2 is by no means bad, but with the changes it is back to Razordons or Terradons. Bastiladons also seem like a viable alternative to Salamanders.

Im super surprised to read this from you. Salamanders wasnt just to deal with Petrifix for me, it was to deliver focused damage on key targets that would threat my gameplan/army. 40 Skinks on the board just dont do the same job at all - They do wonderful damage though. Razordons also need to be significantly better for me to even be a consideration. Going all in only to roll 1s and 2s on the D6 attacks seems rather awful to me. I would much rather prefer the consistent and reliable damage from Salamanders. I realize it is a dice game, but introducing multiple layers of rng/risk just seems bad to me. Dicey units need to be stronger on average than consistent units for me. Bastiladons are also super awful outside of Thunderlizard that I dont understand why it is a consideration, unless you meant it was a viable alternative to Salamanders in specifically Thunderlizard.

I think Katakros Mortis Praetorians will be the new Petrifex. But, it is now range dependent and requires Katakros to stick to the board. He is admittedly sticky,

18" bubble, even if wholly within, is a rather large area of effect on especially such a big base.

 

[LizardWizard]

Im super surprised to read this from you. Salamanders wasnt just to deal with Petrifix for me, it was to deliver focused damage on key targets that would threat my gameplan/army. 40 Skinks on the board just dont do the same job at all - They do wonderful damage though. Razordons also need to be significantly better for me to even be a consideration. Going all in only to roll 1s and 2s on the D6 attacks seems rather awful to me. I would much rather prefer the consistent and reliable damage from Salamanders. I realize it is a dice game, but introducing multiple layers of rng/risk just seems bad to me. Dicey units need to be stronger on average than consistent units for me. Bastiladons are also super awful outside of Thunderlizard that I dont understand why it is a consideration, unless you meant it was a viable alternative to Salamanders in specifically Thunderlizard.

330 is too much for Salamanders. I would rather something tankier and little less damaging such as the Bastiladon. I meant to say Chameleons instead of Razordons. Had just been running the numbers between the two swapped them out while typing Chameleon Skinks cost 30 points more for a 20x unit, have 8 more models (maybe or maybe not with a better save), don't eat up LoSaT, remain "safe" until needed, and deal 1 more damage on average. They also benefit from more of the FoS synergies and play better with the Serpent's Staff. Bastiladons were souly being considered for TL.

18" bubble, even if wholly within, is a rather large area of effect on especially such a big base.

It will definitely be battle-plan dependent. Wholly within 18" radius make for a lot of table soak. Mortis Praetorians Katakros is absolutely a great build. However, it is still a nerf from Petrifex Elite. That combined with LRL, Seraphon, & DoT kinda leaves me expecting a lot of Null Myriad. However, if the meta settles out to be mostly MP with Kat then Salamanders are certainly back on the MVP list.

 

[LizardWizard]

2000pt Thunderlizards: w/Thunderquake and Firelance Star-Hosts

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard

Leaders:
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (230)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Blade of Realities
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Celestial Harmony
Stegadon with Skink Chief (250)
- Artefact: Sacred Stegadon Helm
- Weapon: Skystreak Bow
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One (110)
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration

Battleline:
10 x Saurus Knights (200)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (100)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (100)
- Lances

Units:
3 x Kroxigor (140)
- 1x Moonhammers

Behemoths:
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon: Solar Engine
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon: Solar Engine

Battalions:
Firelance Temple-host (160)
Thunderquake Temple-host (150)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105

For @Dreamkeeper

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[IggyStarhost]

Im super surprised to read this from you. Salamanders wasnt just to deal with Petrifix for me, it was to deliver focused damage on key targets that would threat my gameplan/army. 40 Skinks on the board just dont do the same job at all - They do wonderful damage though. Razordons also need to be significantly better for me to even be a consideration. Going all in only to roll 1s and 2s on the D6 attacks seems rather awful to me. I would much rather prefer the consistent and reliable damage from Salamanders. I realize it is a dice game, but introducing multiple layers of rng/risk just seems bad to me. Dicey units need to be stronger on average than consistent units for me. Bastiladons are also super awful outside of Thunderlizard that I dont understand why it is a consideration, unless you meant it was a viable alternative to Salamanders in specifically Thunderlizard.


18" bubble, even if wholly within, is a rather large area of effect on especially such a big base.

I must agree with Grotpunter, I was a little surprised too. -2 rend is still great. I dont always bring it for high save, but they also give consistency over lower save. Howmany times I have seen my opponent roll bunch of 6’s on the save when I attacked with -1 at a 5+ hero.. Consistency is key to me. But I do very like the Chameleons skinks voor avg 6mw of 16”, so 7” over a screen. That is some nice hero sniping ability.
Only they’re hiding again ability makes me wonder:


It seems like you cant hide them in the 3rd round, or they’re slain in the fourth. Since they technically become reserve again. Pretty sure its not RAI, but RAW makes me fear it without a faq.

 

[ILKAIN]

I must agree with Grotpunter, I was a little surprised too. -2 rend is still great. I dont always bring it for high save, but they also give consistency over lower save. Howmany times I have seen my opponent roll bunch of 6’s on the save when I attacked with -1 at a 5+ hero.. Consistency is key to me. But I do very like the Chameleons skinks voor avg 6mw of 16”, so 7” over a screen. That is some nice hero sniping ability.
Only they’re hiding again ability makes me wonder:
View attachment 75964

It seems like you cant hide them in the 3rd round, or they’re slain in the fourth. Since they technically become reserve again. Pretty sure its not RAI, but RAW makes me fear it without a faq.

rules as written this only checks at exactly the start of the 4th battle round. so you start them hiding. pop them in to kill that exposed hero in turn 3 cuz your opponent forgot about them, pop them out in move phase turn 4 and in again in 5 or 6 for one last push on a important target or a soft hero

 

[IggyStarhost]

rules as written this only checks at exactly the start of the 4th battle round. so you start them hiding. pop them in to kill that exposed hero in turn 3 cuz your opponent forgot about them, pop them out in move phase turn 4 and in again in 5 or 6 for one last push on a important target or a soft hero

No I get that, but I dont want to bring in 360 points at turn 3. Usually turn 1 or 2, and disappear in turn 3 and comeback in 4. But the wording makes it look like you cant disappear in turn 3 (well you can, but not smart to do so)

 

[ILKAIN]

No I get that, but I dont want to bring in 360 points at turn 3. Usually turn 1 or 2, and disappear in turn 3 and comeback in 4. But the wording makes it look like you cant disappear in turn 3 (well you can, but not smart to do so)

that is precisely the only time you cannot do it if you want to keep them alive lol

 

[SkinkBait]

2000pt Thunder Lizards

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard

Leaders:
Stegadon with Skink Chief (250)
- General
- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast
- Artefact: Cloak of Feathers
- Weapon: Skystreak Bow
Lord Kroak (320)
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Skink Starpriest (120)
- Spell: Celestial Harmony

Battleline:
5 x Saurus Guard (100)
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
Stegadon (240)
- Weapon: Skystreak Bow

Units:
6 x Kroxigor (280)
- 2x Moonhammers

Behemoths:
Bastiladon (220)
- Weapon: Solar Engine

Battalions:
Thunderquake Temple-host (150)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs:
Balewind Vortex (40)
Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 91

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Is it not beneficial to maybe drop the Krox to 3 add another skink squad and switch the Steg to a second Bastiladon? Is the Engine of the Gods not worth the extra 10 points over the Skink Chief? Would it maybe be nice to drop the Krox to 3 and make the skink unit a squad of 30 for the starpriest? Your biggest unit is 10 models. Won't you struggle pretty hard to take objectives?

Love this list and I am working on something similar, but there are clearly some differences.

 

[Nart]

For once I disagree completely - 330 points is exactly the price for such unit as salamanders. They are too good not to take them. I played both chameleon skinks and bastiladons and they are not even close in comparison. Even if you feed bastialdons all your CPs in thunderquake, they will still underperform in terms of damage. They have different role, because their advantages are durabilities and range. But in competitive game I would never bring a bastiladon over a salamander pack even after point increase. 2 unit is all you really need. Kroak/skinks can do the rest.

I was not impressed neither by chameleons nor terradons. Chameleons are 360 pts unit which die to a stiff breeze. They pop up, they shoot and then they are dead. They can be good, when they work together, but they are no way a replacement to each other.

Besides, there are lots of strudy targets out there, not only OBR. LRL, Orruks, Archeon- all of them still can soak lots of damage.

 

[IggyStarhost]

For once I disagree completely - 330 points is exactly the price for such unit as salamanders. They are too good not to take them. I played both chameleon skinks and bastiladons and they are not even close in comparison. Even if you feed bastialdons all your CPs in thunderquake, they will still underperform in terms of damage. They have different role, because their advantages are durabilities and range. But in competitive game I would never bring a bastiladon over a salamander pack even after point increase. 2 unit is all you really need. Kroak/skinks can do the rest.

I was not impressed neither by chameleons nor terradons. Chameleons are 360 pts unit which die to a stiff breeze. They pop up, they shoot and then they are dead. They can be good, when they work together, but they are no way a replacement to each other.

Besides, there are lots of strudy targets out there, not only OBR. LRL, Orruks, Archeon- all of them still can soak lots of damage.

I agree with you. Although Chameleon skinks give some more tacticle options in FoS. You could ambush them on a flank or backfield. And then teleport a buffed up unit of skinks to to screen them. One or two rows deep, so if you get charged both units can shoot for 2 cp. Dont think much units can survive 2 to 4 rounds of shooting in one battleround. But salamanders are still a great pick, but I do think they serve different purposes. 1 unit of each would be nice tbh!

 

[LizardWizard]

I think Salamanders are still playable, but I think they are far less of a mandatory pick. They are no longer worth building list around in my opinion. If we were low drop, then sure. How many armies can an opponent nuke down Salamanders before they get into play though. In my opinion, specially when in FoS, Chameleon Skinks are better.

Sadly, Salamanders are still the only option for a unit that is both highly capable in shooting and combat. That versatility is too expensive now. At 330 I would rather just take 280 points of Kroxigor or 360 points of Chameleons Skinks.

 

[LizardWizard]

Is it not beneficial to maybe drop the Krox to 3 add another skink squad and switch the Steg to a second Bastiladon? Is the Engine of the Gods not worth the extra 10 points over the Skink Chief? Would it maybe be nice to drop the Krox to 3 and make the skink unit a squad of 30 for the starpriest? Your biggest unit is 10 models. Won't you struggle pretty hard to take objectives?

Love this list and I am working on something similar, but there are clearly some differences.

I think those are all viable alterations. The Starpriest is there for the Kroxigor. Kroxigor with Savage and Serpent's staff are a terror to behold. Dropping some Krox to bring a Skink Blob for the Starpriest should work as well. I am always loathed to run Skink Blobs outside of FoS though.

 

[Nart]

I still don't believe in competitive seraphon melee, that's why I am not looking at kroxigors. I may include 6 in my thunderquake list instead of salamanders, of course, but stuff with ASF will just bring them down before the attacks. And there are debuffs, chaff screens, etc. etc. Still eager to try them though.

Btw, out of curiosity, have you already played with new BT or your clubs are still shut down? (Mine is finally open, I am so happy!)

 

[erians]

Even if you feed bastialdons all your CPs in thunderquake, they will still underperform in terms of damage

In Thunderhost, not really. They deal 10.67 dmg per turn with double tap and +1 hit (220+70pts) , which is the same as salamanders (330 pts). They also do more damage than salamanders vs 5+/6+ save and a lot more vs deamons (which is huge when the strongest army in the game are deamons). They kill a keeper, LoC, harvester and many other key targets in 1 turn of shooting at 24+5" (+1D6 in TQ) range and can easily reach over screens, something salamanders struggle with. They are cheaper, shoot better or equally good at much better range and are for the most part tankier.

Outside of Thunderlizards they definitely under perform in the shooting phase but as long as you feed them CPs in TL they will shred things. You can't spam them like you can with salamanders because you won't have enough CP and they aren't also a melee hybrid unit like sallies, but I would always take at least 1 bastiladon if I went Thunderlizards.

 

[Nart]

There are too many IFs. You need too much CP to keep them effective and without AQB they are getting even less. Small skink heroes could be easily sniped, leaving them without support. Thunderlizard and coalesced in general is not what you want to run anyway. We need mobility of starborne.

In TL Bastis are fine, but they are uncomparable to salamanders. Salamanders don't really need support or hungry for CP, while bastiladon eat 2 CP per turn.

 

[LizardWizard]

I guess, but with Kroak and Starpriest it is pretty reasonable to expect 3cp available a turn.

 

[erians]

There are too many IFs. You need too much CP to keep them effective and without AQB they are getting even less. Small skink heroes could be easily sniped, leaving them without support. Thunderlizard and coalesced in general is not what you want to run anyway. We need mobility of starborne.

In TL Bastis are fine, but they are uncomparable to salamanders. Salamanders don't really need support or hungry for CP, while bastiladon eat 2 CP per turn.

I don't see how there are many "IFs". Bastiladons don't rely on +1 hit, they are just better with it obviously (and closer to salamander points). Generating 2 CPs per turn isn't hard between Kroak and skink heroes. 2 bastiladons is where it starts to get iffy if you want both +1 hit and touble tap on them.

I agree (as I mentioned) that Bastiladons are bad outside of TL, at least in terms of damage. I also agree that TL-lists aren't our most competitive lists and Salamanders blow them out of the water in starborne, but I was responding to the quote where you claim that they underperfom even in TL, which they don't.

 

[Grotpunter]

Honestly Im so sad they made Thunderlizard the way it is. It basically ensures Bastiladons arent an option in any of the 3 other subfactions, which seems like a kinda shit design choice to me. Why give us less options? I understand the different subfactions granting some kind of synergy to specific units, but this isnt really synergy - It is a matter of a unit being basically worthless vs somewhat viable. I really wish Thunderlizard was something else and Bastiladons instead were baseline awesome to make them a proper choice. Giving up some damage in favor of survivability and range is a reasonable trade off that I would be willing to do.