Is it greater or lower, than the save value? I counted if it was lower. If greater, then squishy support heroes with 5+ save even more safe.
Greater, so a 4+ would get hurt on a 5 & 6, a 3+ would get hit on a 4, 5 & 6, a 6+ is immune.
The main thing that makes it so scary is that it can do a lot of damage on stuff like a scar vet on cold one, a sunblood, or a vampire.
Wardens are 1 in 1 Saurus defense-wise. Only skinks infantry, flyers and heroes are weaker than wardens. And Tzeentch is not squishy. Horrors have 4 wounds per model and can easily return slain models. They also have easy access to locus, in-built fnp. Even tzaangors are 2 wounds per model.
Tzeentch is squishy as hell, there's like 2 or 3 models that have a save that's better than a 5+. The FNP isn't very good and more importantly is only on those who have shields, which means just basic tzaangor and acolytes, which even in a dedicated list is only going to cover part of it and crucial units won't benefit from it (On that note, why don't any of the mortal heroes carry a shield like that?). On top of that the mortals have fairly terrible bravery.
Tzaangor do have 2 wounds, but at a 180 points they're also twice as expensive as saurus warriors. So 2 wounds should be expected.
As for horrors, although 10 pink horrors buys you a lot of wounds you'l be losing them at an astonishing rate. Essentially they're just a weird gimmicky horde. They're still very squishy, there's just a lot of em.
Locus is the only significant defensive ability Tzeentch seems to have. I kinda wish they had more stuff like that.
I thought you were talking about 20-man units, which we are very likely to see. Anyway, I agree, that archers are good, but not whithout disadvantages. They can one-shot a support character with power from hysh, but their range is not infinite either. We already had to deal with mortek crawlers, which had higher range. And still you can cripple them with alpha or beta strike, before they reach the heroes.
The fact that there's other (more) broken stuff doesn't mean this can't be ridiculous itself
And don't get me wrong, I'm sure counters will be invented sooner or later. I just don't like it when armies have no real disadvantages and the only way to "counter" is to either be better (e.g. have 31"+ range) or to just get them first and win before they do anything (e.g. alpha strike). Which seems to be the case for Lumineth, either bring stuff that's better and just trades favorably with them, or get to them first and win.
But not in terms of wounds in terms of liberators.
No, but we were talking about bodies. Because that was what was being brought up as a counter that they bring few bodies. They also don't bring a whole lot of wounds, which is true. And might be a bit more of a problem, although they seem to bring a little below average amount of bodies they don't have the wounds to deal with loads of incoming damage when they do actually get wounded.
Potential buffs are potential buffs. They are conditional. And you were talking how self-sustaining they are.
This was more in reference to the general notion that it's a "squishy" army, they're fairly self-sustaining, more so than most arguably. But they still have plenty of options to buff that as well.
I agree, that all of this things are strong, but in terms of modern AoS they are indeed squshy. This is the age of units which kill anything they touch and 4+ save won't save anyone.
In all honesty, that's depressing. The amount of powercreep is saddening.
You can check theorycrafted lists on TGA LRR theread. They are really limited in choices. It may not be a weakness, but it is definitely a drawback. Just count - Teclis+cathallar+stone mage = 930 points, almost the half of an army. And you want a battalion and a cow and lots of archers and wardens to screen. You simply cannot take all of them.
My point is more that that can still be more than enough to actually get your combo going. I mean we also can't put literally every unit we have into an army. That doesn't mean we can't make good lists.
MSU = buffs applied to lesser number of models. And with bravery 6 even msu can be problematic. Kill half of the unit and move to another - other half has good chance to run on their own. Cathallar can target only one unit per turn. Having more casts=more chances to fail. Besides, only HH, kroak and nagash can probably stop the standard force with teclis. Anyway, not all units will be always in combat, so you can concentrate on unbinding Sentinels' PoH, for example.
MSU also means the enemy wastes more attacks, have fun crashing your deathstar into something relativly worthless like 10 wardens while 3 units of archers and Teclis annihilate them from a safe position.
They're relativly self suficient, which means you can put the buffs on units that matter while counting on the others to carry their own weight.
The only downside that being MSU focussed has is that you won't be bringing deathstars along who can just instantly delete whatever you point them at, no matter how powerfull. You will actually have to have your units work together to take down big threats instead of the relative fire and forget method of just slamming a deathstar into it.
It is not a weakness when you have tons of bodies. When your infantry is 12/13 pts per wound, this can turn out problematic. LRR doesn't have cheap screens. They are very vulnerable to massive alpha-beta strikes. And this kind of justifies their deadlyness. Other top-tier factions are either cheaper or more survivable or have ways to return bodies/summon. If an elf dies, however, it dies forever and it dies easily.
Again, the powercreep in this game is saddening if it's gotten so bad that this is has become a genuine weakness as opposed to just a different playstyle.
Keep in mind, however, that coalesced saurus knights are 6 attacks per body without any coniditons.
That's less bad a comparison than I imagined. I think the fact that they can get a whopping +26 attacks for a MSU as a passive effect kind of threw me off here as it's a rather impressive buff for something that's a selfbuff.
To be honest, that might be the biggest issue that keeps triggering me. The advantages they have are effects that look amazing on paper. +26 attacks for a MSU cavalry unit as a selfbuff is obscene, every single unit in your army spamming mortal wounds on a hit of 5+/6+ is ridiculous, autocasting is stupidly usefull etc. But the "drawbacks" are much less pronounced and don't really jump out on paper. Yeah +26 attacks on a MSU is great, but with "only" 17 attacks baseline the end result still only puts them roughly on par with Saurus knights. And even if they have a lot of attacks they don't have the statline of say chaos knights. Teclis is ridiculous as a wizard, but if he's the only wizard you end up bringing the list as a whole still isn't that magical. Mortal wounds spam is excessive, but with most models only having 1-2 attacks that are sunstone weapons it should be manageable.
It makes for a weird list where you when you read a new rule you constantly have to resist the urge to go "well this is ridiculous" because without this rule they're very underwelming.
Also, it doesn't help that they've taken several mechanics that fit thematicly much nicer with other factions that they've just released an update for. That doesn't help with keeping an open mind
.
Anyway, I see no point in continuing the discussion. If you think, that LRR are broken beyond reason auto-play easy mod AoS, it is up to you. I, personaly, see nothing that we have not seen already. Pertifex Nagash is way worse than Teclis, but no one seem to take him on tournaments anymore. I bet the same will happen to Teclis in favor of more bodies/more agressive playstyle.
I don't expect them to become auto-play easy mode, I don't expect anything to ever reach that. I do however fear that it's yet another army that with certain overpowered mechanics pushes the game just slightly further in a certain direction, which then requires the next release to push even further in that direction in other to keep up. Causing the older/weaker armies & playstyles to fall further behind. Forcing you to play in a particular manner just to keep up.
Which tends to be especially noticeable in a more casual setting, in a tournament setting they can at least count on overpowered mechanic X to be kept in check by some hard-counter to average out its win-average to a "healthy" value, allowing the broken nonsense to hide behind that "normal" winrating. It's especially easy to hide if there's 100's of opponents to play and only a handfull use the broken nonsense as only a few players in that particular tournament will be frustrated at having to deal with that nonsense. While in a casual setting this is far more difficult simply because it's not uncommon that noone can (or wants to) play the hardcounter. And even more importantly, if you only have say 10 players at your local store, it'l be far more obvious when Timmy keeps using his broken nonsense then when he does it at a tournament with 100 people.
It wouldn't be the first game I've seen fall from grace because new releases kept pushing and pushing until it's barely recognizeable as the original.
