8th Ed. Chaos Warriors Tactics - Fulfilling the plans of the Old Ones...

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so I'm a relative newbie so be gentle:

I'd appreciate advice from anyone who is a veteran of the war against Chaos, specifically WoC as the tactics against DoC seem to be pretty straightforward.

I've tried some ideas myself in the last battle I played:

Skink Skirmishers to counter Giants and anything with high toughness but no armour save. Did GREAT against the Giant, but fluffed it on anything else.

Cham Skinks to attack the inevitable Chaos Cannons (did absolutely nothing and I kick myself for taking htem with the 4+, 5++, (sigh) anyways)

3 blocks of Saurus but with no champions each was paired up with an ancient stegadon (only one unit did okay and wiped out Chaos Warriors, the other two got flanked and properly mullered).

TG bunkered WD Slann with harmonic convergence, re-roll dispel, etc. plus two flying Skink Priests (did fairly well initially but then got flanked and mullered)

Two OB on Carnosaurs which were fairly decked out for challenges, but got nowhere as the opponent just threw away his low level characters (won't be doing that again, and saw in the tactica that Carno's are really only useful against monstrous infranty or monsters.

Two units of 9 Krox for back-up to the Saurus (one got into combat and did pretty good, the other was wiped out by an UNBELeVIABLY lucky cannon roll... UNBELIEVABLE)

Anyways, would appreciate any input.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I'm haven't played all that much against Warriors myself, but I'll try to give some ideas if I can:

Cham Skinks to attack the inevitable Chaos Cannons (did absolutely nothing and I kick myself for taking htem with the 4+, 5++, (sigh) anyways)

Maybe ripperdactyls could do the job instead, or if nothing else then shut them down for a turn or two while they fight it.

3 blocks of Saurus but with no champions each was paired up with an ancient stegadon (only one unit did okay and wiped out Chaos Warriors, the other two got flanked and properly mullered).

Yeah Chaos Warriors are strong... basically nothing in our army can stand toe to toe with them without magic support, but Lore of Metal can do a number on them.

TG bunkered WD Slann with harmonic convergence, re-roll dispel, etc. plus two flying Skink Priests (did fairly well initially but then got flanked and mullered)

Getting flanked is bad so not much to say to that other than: Don't get flanked
Against WoC your Temple Guard would likely benefit greatly from the 'Razor Standard', though maybe you were already using that.

Two OB on Carnosaurs which were fairly decked out for challenges, but got nowhere as the opponent just threw away his low level characters (won't be doing that again, and saw in the tactica that Carno's are really only useful against monstrous infranty or monsters.

Maybe it's just me but I've had really bad luck with Carnos against WoC, they are just too slow in combat, so they'll take a whole lot of damage before being able to do anything themselves, making it really hard for them to make their points back since they are quite squishy.

Two units of 9 Krox for back-up to the Saurus (one got into combat and did pretty good, the other was wiped out by an UNBELeVIABLY lucky cannon roll... UNBELIEVABLE)

HOW!? How in the world did a cannon kill 9 krox in one go? Were they all standing in a conga-line?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, I was a bit dramatic on the cannon point. It was the second to last turn, with the chaos cannon it is a small template, he rolled a hit meaning that it was right on top of the unit and hit all 9 Krox, 3 died and then then failed the break test. So basically even though they rallied in the end they did nothing.

I'm with you on the Carnosaurs, definitely won't be fielding them again unless it's a monster heavy army I guess like beastmen or Ogre Kingdoms.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Yeah, so funnily enough I did muller his Chaos Knight unit with a Searing Doom (6 knights dead), but that same unit ended up being the flanking unit with a lord and sorceror that flanked me, with his DP and CW unit with Lord. Went through My Temple Guard and Slann like they were blowing their nose...

I was using the TG with razor standard and I think that against just one of the above units they would have done alight.

Definitely learned my lesson on the flanking.

Have you had any success with Skrox units? I'm thinking next time (as he's challenged me to a rematch) that I take a large (like 24 to 30 skinks) with 2 or 3 Krox and just charge into his knights to hold them still while the CO Bus does damage elsewhere.

Any advice on how specifically to use the Bus? I've read about it and started drooling but I'm not quite track with how only 5 COR makes two characters into a boss unit...?

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Have you had any success with Skrox units? I'm thinking next time (as he's challenged me to a rematch) that I take a large (like 24 to 30 skinks) with 2 or 3 Krox and just charge into his knights to hold them still while the CO Bus does damage elsewhere.

Sadly none, they never perform well for me. I do think they have a niche, but more as a flanking unit that can get across the table a lot faster than saurus warriors. they might be able to challenge smaller cavalry units a bit, bit if the kroxigors get killed the unit gets pretty much worthless.
Also Skinks are just horrible in combat almost no matter what magical buffs they get.

Any advice on how specifically to use the Bus? I've read about it and started drooling but I'm not quite track with how only 5 COR makes two characters into a boss unit...?

I haven't used it myself actually, but I think the idea is that the characters won't get as easily sniped, and of course they won
t get bogged down as much if they need to fight off a weak unit. The characters would for instance get 'look out sir' against the cannon.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Thanks. It seems like they would be a decent suicide unit, as if you stuck two Krox in the middle of 24 skinks then the enemy would have to cause 24 wounds before anything hit the Krox... Should be at least 2 rounds of combat. Relatively inexpensive to do... Plus they have the 6+ parry save for hand weapons and shields which is at least something.

Makes sense on the sniping, weak unit handling and look out sir. I'll definitely be trying the bus next time with WoC.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Thanks. It seems like they would be a decent suicide unit, as if you stuck two Krox in the middle of 24 skinks then the enemy would have to cause 24 wounds before anything hit the Krox... Should be at least 2 rounds of combat. Relatively inexpensive to do... Plus they have the 6+ parry save for hand weapons and shields which is at least something.

The Kroxigor can be attacked separately, so your opponent won't have to kill all the skinks before the can kill the krox.

 

[Scalenex]

I didn't realize you are an 8th edition player! @NIGHTBRINGER will be pleased!

In any event, give the 8th edition Tactica Index a visit and browse at your leisure.

I'd appreciate advice from anyone who is a veteran of the war against Chaos, specifically WoC as the tactics against DoC seem to be pretty straightforward.

Well you are playing on hard mode. In my opinion, Warriors of Chaos is the hardest army to beat with Lizardmen. I probably lost 3 out of 4 of my battles with the Warriors of Chaos. My few victories usually hinge on consistently getting solid magic phases.

Skink Skirmishers to counter Giants and anything with high toughness but no armour save. Did GREAT against the Giant, but fluffed it on anything else.

That's pretty much Skink shooting in a nutshell. They are great at killing poorly armored targets and they are near useless against highly armored targets.

Note Skink units can do more than shoot. They help you win positioning. This is tough for a newbie and it's tough for an experienced players but in the right hands, you can use expendable Skink units to pull valuable enemy units out of position. See the thread How to Skink.

Small units of Skinks are valuable for another purpose, "winning" deployment. A small unit of Skink skirmishers is both weak and very mobile. You can place them almost anywhere initially. During deployment if you start out with your Skink Skirmishers, you can stall placing your valuable expensive units until you see where and how the enemy's main battle line forming.

Caution though. If you place your Skink skirmishers in wide lines, you may block your own units from deploying where you want them.

Cham Skinks to attack the inevitable Chaos Cannons (did absolutely nothing and I kick myself for taking htem with the 4+, 5++, (sigh) anyways)

We don't have a hard counter to the Chaos Cannons. We have two soft counters besides specific magic spells. Kroxigors and Ripperdacyls. Rippers, you are taking a chance that the Cannon will fight back well and kill the Rippers. Kroxigors, you are taking a chance that the Kroxigors will never get to the Cannon.

Cham Skinks to attack the inevitable Chaos Cannons (did absolutely nothing and I kick myself for taking htem with the 4+, 5++, (sigh) anyways)

I like Chamo Skinks in general, but they are not very helpful against Warriors of Chaos.

3 blocks of Saurus but with no champions each was paired up with an ancient stegadon (only one unit did okay and wiped out Chaos Warriors, the other two got flanked and properly mullered).

Saurus Warriors and Stegadons (or Ancient Stegadons) is a pretty solid combo if you can pull it off. It takes practice. If you can toss the Saurus some magic buff spells (or cast spells on the Chaos units) even better.

I will note that while Saurus, Skinks, and Skroxigor are fairly solid units, you should generally not spend more than the minimum 25% required for Core when making competitive lists.

TG bunkered WD Slann with harmonic convergence, re-roll dispel, etc. plus two flying Skink Priests (did fairly well initially but then got flanked and mullered)

Solid choices here.

Two OB on Carnosaurs which were fairly decked out for challenges, but got nowhere as the opponent just threw away his low level characters (won't be doing that again, and saw in the tactica that Carno's are really only useful against monstrous infranty or monsters.

Maybe it's just me but I've had really bad luck with Carnos against WoC, they are just too slow in combat, so they'll take a whole lot of damage before being able to do anything themselves, making it really hard for them to make their points back since they are quite squishy.

It's not just you. They are not a great choice against Warriors of Chaos. Given that you are playing games of 5000 points, instead of OB, maybe try some Scar Vets on Carnosaurs with relatively simple item spreads. You get most of the same biting power but you aren't out as many points if they whiff it.

Two units of 9 Krox for back-up to the Saurus (one got into combat and did pretty good, the other was wiped out by an UNBELeVIABLY lucky cannon roll... UNBELIEVABLE)

One of my favorite Tacticas that I wrote is the Kroxigor Tactica. In my opinion , 9-17 is the worst unit size for Kroxigor. I would recommend swapping your 2 x 9 Kroxigor units for 3 x 6. Or because you are playing a grand army (and thus are allowed more than three units of a single special choice), maybe swap them for 4 units of 4 Kroxigor, fielded in 2x2 squares.

Kroxigor almost never get rank bonuses or keep them for very long, so you don't lose much fielding Kroxigor in ranks of 2. 2x2 squares are more maneuverable and good for providing flank support for Saurus Warriors. Units of 5-8 Kroxigor provide okay support to Saurus Warriors but the real niche for Kroxigor is as a Monster killer. Kroxigor are great at taking down monsters, such as the dreaded Hellcannon. If you can get them to the monsters that is.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

The Kroxigor can be attacked separately, so your opponent won't have to kill all the skinks before the can kill the krox.

Blast. Read the rules wrong, thought they had to be attacked last after all the skinks were dead.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Scalenex thanks a lot!!! Some good advice there. The only thing I can think of at the moment is deploying my minimum size skink units (10) in 5 ranks of 2 so as to minimize the width they take up since they are literally cannon fodder.

Otherwise, I'm definitely going to use a Slann, Tetto and I think two Skink Priests so as to get maximum channelling happening to assist me in the magic phase. I definitely ruled it last time until the Slann got mullered, but this time he'll be expecting it and will have decked out his units with magic protection. I'm thinking Metal Slann and the Skink Priests with Heavens so I can use my EotG to make it minimum casting amounts for Heavens magic or Metal depending on what's happening.

I'm going to read the tactica that you recommended!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

The Kroxigor can be attacked separately, so your opponent won't have to kill all the skinks before the can kill the krox.

Thanks a a lot for the advice @ASSASIN_NR_1

Appreciate you taking the time!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so I've been studying a bunch of the tactica. My friend (who I'll be playing January due to being busy with his kids and wife over Christmas... I know his priorities are messed up ) was very impressed with the magic ability of the army last time and I know that he'll be spending a LOT of points to protect his guys from magic, so I figured I'd do an "Art of War" on him and do the following:

2 CO OB's tooled out for combat in a 7 man (or lizard) CO unit with a SV BSB with skavenpelt banner

Large skink cohort to tarpit his Chaos knights & lord unit.

1 large Saurus unit with spears to stop one of hte CW units
1 large TG unit to stop the other one

2 ancient stegadons for impact hits, thunderstomp and with EotG for additional combat damage and 6+ ward save for them and the Saurus/TG they get paired with

2 SP's just to hold a dispel scroll or cube

3 units of 10 skink skirmishers to redirect.

Tetto'eko for some Magic and vanguard at least the large skink cohort into the knights

I'm still messing around with the list (as that is a whole load of fun just in itself)

But I'd appreciate any input from the Assasin or the Nex?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Plus a Bastiladon with solar engine

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

2 ancient stegadons for impact hits, thunderstomp and with EotG for additional combat damage and 6+ ward save for them and the Saurus/TG they get paired with

If your opponent is using a lot of multiwound stuff, you should consider sharpened horns if you haven't already.

2 SP's just to hold a dispel scroll or cube

Maybe you could put one priest in the skink unit meant to hold down a unit. Make him have the signature from heavens which gives -1 to hit, making it easier for the skinks to stay alive; You could even go for a miscast with the priest to blow up some warriors that way.

Plus a Bastiladon with solar engine

If you are lucky with the bound spell it could be worthwile, but there isn't much it can actually fight when facing WoC and the +1 Initiative doesn't do anything for you here either.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Good points...

I think I'll rework the list to include the 2x2 Krox units instead of Bastiladon...

He doesn't really field much with multiple wounds. He used a Giant last time and it was Skink bait in turn one!

I'm anticipating a Chaos Knight unit, 1-2 Hellcannons, and 2-3 units of Chaos Warriors of Nurgle with Lords, blah, blah, blah, the usual BS. Probably his DP as well which is really the only big thing with multiple wounds.

Maybe I'll try to squeeze in a couple of Salamanders as well.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I'm anticipating a Chaos Knight unit, 1-2 Hellcannons, and 2-3 units of Chaos Warriors of Nurgle with Lords, blah, blah, blah, the usual BS. Probably his DP as well which is really the only big thing with multiple wounds.

Especially with the mark of nurgle, magic seems to be your best friend. I'll assume he makes the warriors quite defensive then, maybe giving them shields for a 3+ AS, that makes the lore of metal quite potent. You don't have a Slann in the list though, but if you can get the Chain Lighting and Thunderbolt spells for your priest they might be able to do some work for you.
Against Nurgle it's tough to get much done in combat, so your best bet is the stegadon's with impact hits and thunderstomps, which you have already noted, it probably means that your stegs will be your most important units.
If you do take sharpened horns for your Stegs even though it's mostly for the DP, you will at least be able to threaten him, if the DP has Chaos armor (4+ AS) and a 4+ ward you should do an average of 3 wounds on the charge to him for each stegadon, he won't like that.

Maybe I'll try to squeeze in a couple of Salamanders as well.

Sadly Salamanders won't do much for you here either since Chaos Warriors are on 25mm bases, so you won't hit as many as say empire troops, they are all toughness 4 (unless he for some reason uses marauders) and will have at least a 5+ save. Say you make a good shot and hit 12 guys somehow; That'll only net you 6 wounds on average which translate to 3-4 wounds, and that's with an optimal shot. Sure it can make it's points back throughout a game, but there will likely be rounds where it can't shoot, misfires or isn't able to shoot at infantry in which case it is almost useless. (Just as Scalenex says in the tactica)

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Especially with the mark of nurgle, magic seems to be your best friend. I'll assume he makes the warriors quite defensive then, maybe giving them shields for a 3+ AS, that makes the lore of metal quite potent. You don't have a Slann in the list though, but if you can get the Chain Lighting and Thunderbolt spells for your priest they might be able to do some work for you.
Against Nurgle it's tough to get much done in combat, so your best bet is the stegadon's with impact hits and thunderstomps, which you have already noted, it probably means that your stegs will be your most important units.
If you do take sharpened horns for your Stegs even though it's mostly for the DP, you will at least be able to threaten him, if the DP has Chaos armor (4+ AS) and a 4+ ward you should do an average of 3 wounds on the charge to him for each stegadon, he won't like that.

Fair enough, I'll be putting the Slann back on the list and investing in the sharpened horns. I gave both of them EotG so that they could give the 6+ ward save to my saurus units who can take spears to fight in three ranks.


Sadly Salamanders won't do much for you here either since Chaos Warriors are on 25mm bases, so you won't hit as many as say empire troops, they are all toughness 4 (unless he for some reason uses marauders) and will have at least a 5+ save. Say you make a good shot and hit 12 guys somehow; That'll only net you 6 wounds on average which translate to 3-4 wounds, and that's with an optimal shot. Sure it can make it's points back throughout a game, but there will likely be rounds where it can't shoot, misfires or isn't able to shoot at infantry in which case it is almost useless. (Just as Scalenex says in the tactica)

Good point... I'll look over the list again.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so cudo's to @ASSASIN_NR_1 and @Scalenex for their advice.

I've reworked and this is plan currently:

OB on CO - Steg Helm, Talisman of Preservation, Other Tricksters Shard, GW with 5 COR with Chamion

35 Saurus with spears, with SV BSB with Razor Banner and SV with GW and Armour of Destiny

21 TG with skavenpelt banner bunkering a Metal Slann with Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence and Channeling staff

2 Ancient Stegadons with EotG for 6+ save (one for each infantry block as above for their own 6+ ward, impact hits and thunderstomp)

5 units of 10 skink skirmishers for monster hunting, fluff hunting or redirecting

2 Skink Priests, one with cloak of feathers to get where I need to be for missles/direct damage spells and the other with egg of quango to (hopefully) give the inevitable DP or Chaos Knights a nasty surprise when they charge thinking to get a quick kill.

What do you reckon?

Reaching out to @NIGHTBRINGER and @LORD-AGRAGAX-OF-LUNAXOATL as well if they would do me the honor of sharing their experience!

Cheers!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Especially with the mark of nurgle, magic seems to be your best friend. I'll assume he makes the warriors quite defensive then, maybe giving them shields for a 3+ AS, that makes the lore of metal quite potent. You don't have a Slann in the list though, but if you can get the Chain Lighting and Thunderbolt spells for your priest they might be able to do some work for you.
Against Nurgle it's tough to get much done in combat, so your best bet is the stegadon's with impact hits and thunderstomps, which you have already noted, it probably means that your stegs will be your most important units.
If you do take sharpened horns for your Stegs even though it's mostly for the DP, you will at least be able to threaten him, if the DP has Chaos armor (4+ AS) and a 4+ ward you should do an average of 3 wounds on the charge to him for each stegadon, he won't like that.




Sadly Salamanders won't do much for you here either since Chaos Warriors are on 25mm bases, so you won't hit as many as say empire troops, they are all toughness 4 (unless he for some reason uses marauders) and will have at least a 5+ save. Say you make a good shot and hit 12 guys somehow; That'll only net you 6 wounds on average which translate to 3-4 wounds, and that's with an optimal shot. Sure it can make it's points back throughout a game, but there will likely be rounds where it can't shoot, misfires or isn't able to shoot at infantry in which case it is almost useless. (Just as Scalenex says in the tactica)

Thanks for your points. I tried to do the @ thing above but misspelled your user name!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Aaaaand misspelled another, so I'll try again:

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl would love to hear your input on my army list!