AoS Kroxigor Jaw Attacks

[BlacKnight]

Do the mortal wounds generated by the Kroxigor apply to only one model or are they applied to the unit?

The reason why I'm confused on how it should be played is because it's worded that the Kroxigor pick up a victim (singular), you dice off, and if you win you deal mortal wounds equal to the difference of the roll. Do those mortal wounds apply only to that victim they picked up? Or would they spread to the victims unit?

 

[Aginor]

I think it was FAQed somewhere that it only applies to one model, which sucks.

 

[Aginor]

Huh, can't find it right now so when in doubt I would actually put it this way:
The general rule says that wounds are allocated to a unit, not to a model, unless stated otherwise. While it would be logical that the shaking around happens to only one model (would look hilarious otherwise) the rules don't say "one model". Put the damage on the unit.

 

[Freddy25]

I'd go for the singular model option, honestly.

I don't have the Battletome with me now, but if I recall correctly the rule represents clearly a Kroxigor aiming at the throat of an enemy...
To me it is a sort of anti-monstrous-infantry ability, and I also believe it sounds really realistic:
such a move in fact would effectively be quite useless against small but numerous targets and at the same couldn't kill a giant monster (in fact you can inflict a maximum of 5 mortal wounds with this ability... while un-buffed ).

 

[Dr Kaos]

I thought this game only targeted units, be they of size 1 or 40 or maybe even more. The rule itslef describes a hapless victim but I have always considered that to be a fluffy description of how the overgrown mancrocodile makes this attack.

 

[Seraphage]

By the way guys, this was discussed I think at some point but honestly can't recall :

We can't buff them with Starpriests' attack as it deals twice the damage of the attack right ? I mean, the ability triggers by "rolling with your opponent and the difference is X MW " so I guess it doesn't make sense to double the damage since it is allocated by a roll

 

[Aginor]

Thats correct. Serpent Staff only buffs the normal weapon damage, it does not affect damage by abilities.

 

[Freddy25]

Guys, I'm almost sure we actually can double Kroxis' damage with the serpent staff: I'm posting a link to another thread in which we discussed this topic.
Here it is.
I hope this hasn't been FAQed or nerfed in some way 'cause it is (and was) a nice and funny combo from our units!

... and coming back on-topic, I've read again the text of "Jaws like a Steel Trap" ability: I'm still on the idea it targets an enemy model and not an enemy unit.

It may be a fluffy description, of course, but reeding things like
"the Kroxigor clamps its massive teeth around its victim", "shakes it back and fourth" and "the victim slips free" and having just 1 Jaws attack per Kroxigor it sounds quite hard to me to justify the fact this ability targets more models at once...

Happy to be wrong, of course, since it'd mean my Kroxis are better than I thought!

 

[Crowsfoot]

The text say Victim so that suggests one model not a unit as quoted by @Freddy25 also the link Freddy has put up in his explanation he is backed up by @Bainbow who was a wealth of AOS information.

 

[Aginor]

Yeah but it is entirely possible it still damages several enemies. Like: The Kroxigor shakes the victim back and forth and doing so he slaps several other near enemies with it. Maybe when he finally lets go of the body he throws it into the masses of enemies with an ear-splitting roar. Imagine the Kroxigor standing between Skaven scum, shaking one rat and then throwing it into the other ones, hurting one or two of them.
Sounds entirely plausible for me.


As for @Freddy25 's explanation for Serpent Staff + Jaws like a Steel Trap:
I like it. I am not fully convinced it is intended but upon re-reading the paragraphs I think the fact that the description for Serpent Staff does NOT say "double the damage characteristic" or something like that, makes it really more likely that it indeed works as we all wish it to work.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Yeah but it is entirely possible it still damages several enemies. Like: The Kroxigor shakes the victim back and forth and doing so he slaps several other near enemies with it. Maybe when he finally lets go of the body he throws it into the masses of enemies with an ear-splitting roar. Imagine the Kroxigor standing between Skaven scum, shaking one rat and then throwing it into the other ones, hurting one or two of them.
Sounds entirely plausible for me.


As for @Freddy25 's explanation for Serpent Staff + Jaws like a Steel Trap:
I like it. I am not fully convinced it is intended but upon re-reading the paragraphs I think the fact that the description for Serpent Staff does NOT say "double the damage characteristic" or something like that, makes it really more likely that it indeed works as we all wish it to work.

I agree that a giant of a Kroxigor would indeed hurl the victim into the masses but it says "victim" which is singular not plural.

 

[Dr Kaos]

 

[Aginor]

View attachment 37011

That's pretty much what I meant as well, but:
There are exceptions to that "the defender's choice" rule, even some that allow to target single models. So... yeah....

 

[Dr Kaos]

But they specifically talk about models and not victims I guess? The ruleset uses words like target and model. If the jaws have a target for its attack do that only apply after you roll the 6+ on the wound roll? Or is it actually from the to hit roll which imo would imply that every attack any model makes must have a specific model as a target.

 

[Aginor]

No it is just a normal attack on a unit. The special ability it kicks in after the wound roll.

Thats why I think the text is only meant to be seen as fluff and the damage is allocated normally.

 

[BlacKnight]

Yeah, i think I'm going to play it as against only one model/victim... despite wishing that it applied to the while unit

There are other models in AoS that also only target one model. Skarbrand is one that comes to mind. His Total Carnage rule allows him to pick one model and have that one target model suffer 8 wounds. Great for killing characters and other beasties, but not so much for dealing with units. As discussed I'm convinced that the jaw attacks fall into the same category of abilities.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion everyone!

 

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, i think I'm going to play it as against only one model/victim... despite wishing that it applied to the while unit

There are other models in AoS that also only target one model. Skarbrand is one that comes to mind. His Total Carnage rule allows him to pick one model and have that one target model suffer 8 wounds.

And in that case, it is explicitly said in the warscroll.
There's no such a distinction for Kroxigors, so the damage dealt by the jaws should apply to the whole unit. I don't see any evidence that tells me the opposite, also because the use of the term "victim" is more fluff than rule, as "victim" has no correspondence in the rules.

It may be a fluffy description, of course, but reeding things like
"the Kroxigor clamps its massive teeth around its victim", "shakes it back and fourth" and "the victim slips free" and having just 1 Jaws attack per Kroxigor it sounds quite hard to me to justify the fact this ability targets more models at once...

for what it's worth, I find hard to justify a starpoisoned needle shot by a blowpipe that is able to kill 2 different daemons...

 

[Freddy25]

My (personal) opinion in bold and in the spoiler box!

And in that case, it is explicitly said in the warscroll.
There's no such a distinction for Kroxigors, so the damage dealt by the jaws should apply to the whole unit.
I don't see any evidence that tells me the opposite, also because the use of the term "victim" is more fluff than rule, as "victim" has no correspondence in the rules.

Right, but I
- believe that if a rule is ambiguous you can try to get some explanation from the fluffy description and try to mimic it (and in my opinion at least fluff-wise this rule seems to me to refer to a single enemy creature/model);
- tend to follow the steps of, in case of ambiguity in a particular rule, firstly speaking with the opponent to find a solution, then (if it is not possible or helpful) interpreting the rule in the most disadvantageous way for me.
This way if you discover later you got an unnecessary penalty you still know your next matches will be easier!

for what it's worth, I find hard to justify a starpoisoned needle shot by a blowpipe that is able to kill 2 different daemons...

Spoiler: I usually imagine something like this:

But of course with one less scallop... I mean "deamon"

 

[Killer Angel]

I cannot disagree with this attitude. ^
Especially if there is a discussion, it's the same approach I tend to adopt.


But I still think that kroxies damage the unit.

 

[Canas]

And in that case, it is explicitly said in the warscroll.
There's no such a distinction for Kroxigors, so the damage dealt by the jaws should apply to the whole unit. I don't see any evidence that tells me the opposite, also because the use of the term "victim" is more fluff than rule, as "victim" has no correspondence in the rules.



for what it's worth, I find hard to justify a starpoisoned needle shot by a blowpipe that is able to kill 2 different daemons...

In fairness, this goes for 99% of the attacks that do more than 1 damage. A carnosaur biting or a orruk stabbing someone isn't going to magicly hit his neighbour either...

To be honest, it's a bit of a missed chance; it'd stop damage dealers from just being good against everything. Lots of 1-damage attacks would be great against low-wound models, whereas the big bad Multi-wound attack would only really be usefull against heroes and big monsters and the like.