AoS Ideas for the future Seraphon Allegiance

[Nielspeterdejong]

So I read online on the Age of Sigmar facebook page that they are planning on bringing out a new General's handbook.

Should they also bring out the Seraphon Allegiance that we would love to see, what would you like to see in it? (And do you think they will bring it out any time soon?). What are your personal thoughts and ideas for this?

For instance, I would love it if you could choose between two Allegiances: Seraphon and Lizardmen.
The Seraphon boosts the newly Summoning powers of the Slann, making them more viable in competitive play, while the Lizardmen one boosts the strength of the units but they will lose the ability to summon.

Lizardmen Allegiance (Seraphon Allegiance option):

These Seraphon Forgo their new Summoning powers in exchange for the ancient battle prowess that the Lizardmen wielded as defenders of Lustria.

Battle trait: Ancient defenders.
As the defenders of the Old one's plan, and Lustria against the powers of Chaos, it's defenders are masters of war and defense.
-Memories of Lustria: Seraphon under the Lizardmen Allegiance cannot summon in new units of Seraphon. But instead gain powerfull battle traits to many of their units.
-Sworn Guardians: Saurus Warriors and Saurus Knights gain the benefits of the Sworn Guardians ability from the Saurus guards.
-Order Runeshield: Saurus guards may roll a dice each time they suffer a moral wound. On a roll of 5 or 6 that mortal wound is ignored.
-Skirmishers: One unit of Skinks may pile in to attack, or use their "wary fighters" ability, as a bonus action at the start of any combat phase, before or after charges have been declared and rolled (and as such before any other unit attacks). Additionally all Skinks gain a bonus based on their weapons:
*Boltspitter: +1 on all wound rolls with Boltspitter
*Javelin: -1 on hit rolls on charges against this unit of Skinks in the combat phase
*Shield: -1 on hit rolls against this unit of Skinks in the shooting phase
*Club: This unit of Skinks gains the Celestial Cohort bonus in the combat phase as well. Additionally, this unit of Skinks gains a +1 on hit and wound rolls in the combat phase.
-Spawn brothers: Kroxigor grant the "Sworn Guardians" ability to Skinks within 3". Additionally they gain a +1" increase on all attacks (Maximum 3").
-Death from above: Terradon/Ripperdactyl riders who completely destroy a unit may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more they may move as many inches as their move speed.

The idea here is that these buffs will allow the Lizardmen Allegiance Seraphon units to be more self reliant, which will allow for more tactics. Such as the Skinks being able to be used as actual Skirmishers, weakening the enemy and staying out of reach of melee units like Horse archers would in the real world. This may seem strong, but remember that Skinks have 6+ defense. Meaning that any meaningfull attacks will rip right through them. However, if you guys feel that I should change the description of the Skirmishers ability then I'm open for suggestions.

I hope I got the "Skirmishers" their pile in and "Wary fighters" ability combat phase and charge mechanics right. Please tell me if I haven't though. The idea is that one unit of Skinks can either pull back freely (like the horse archer units from Total War), or hold their ground and pile in freely first even when charged, or when they charge in with Kroxigor behind their backs allows both the Skinks and Kroxigor to strike first. Creating a powerfull team.

I still haven't thought about the Artifects of the Commands. But I was thinking about items that are beneficial to the Monster heroes (maybe one that lets your unit heal D3 if they deal damage with a natural attack of their mount?), or one that improves your ability rolls (for Skink Priests for instance, whom the Order Artifacts are mostly wasted on).

I also haven't thought much about the Seraphon Allegiance, but it will have something to do with making summoning less expensive for them, and maybe lets you add the points of slain enemy units to your summoning pool? (Like half?) In that way it would replace the "Warclaw Starhost" idea I had a little while ago.

Thoughts? Any ideas of your own?

 

[Bowser]

Interesting concept, I am not sure I would go with a divide between Lizardmen and Seraphon. I would love to see a power where wary fighter is used before any other pile in can be declared. That would be awesome. Giving slann some more perks would be great to get some more playability out of them too. I would definitely love to see them out out a seraphon allegiance though.

 

[Killer Angel]

So I read online on the Age of Sigmar facebook page that they are planning on bringing out a new General's handbook.

yeah, that's absolutely reasonable, what a great idea!

 

[pendrake]

So I read online on the Age of Sigmar facebook page that they are planning on bringing out a new General's handbook.

yeah, that's absolutely reasonable, what a great idea!

But...is the first one less than a year old? They used to do Warhammer Annuals... Then that stopped and they did a General's Compendium...

...wanders off to lurk in my steamy, swampy jungle...

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Well in that case, why not something simpler?

How about:

Seraphon Allegiance

Battle trait: Ancient defenders:
Seraphon Units within 8" of any Seraphon heroes (Including the heroes themselves) may add 2 to their bravery and 1 to the result of any save rolls for it. If the Seraphon unit already has a similar effect, it may ignore a wound or mortal wound on a dice roll of 6. Non-Hero Seraphon monsters do not gain this battle trait.

New command ability: The General of your army may gain access to the "Champion of the Old ones" command. This gives a +1 on hit rolls to all friendly Seraphon units within 10"

Command Traits:
1) Skaven rug Standard: All Skink units within 10" of your general receive a +1 on wound rolls in the shooting phase.
2) Skaven rug cape: All Saurus units within 10" of your general can make an additional attack with their "Powerfull jaws and Stardrake shield" attacks, and all "Powerfull jaws and Stardrake shield" attacks receive a +1 on hit rolls.
3) Lore of the Old ones: A Slann Starmaster in your army, whom you assigned as your general, may choose to gain the "Lore of the Old ones" trait in exchange for giving up Summoning. Becoming a Slann Mage Priest in the process. You may chooses up to 3 spells that are known by any friendly Order Wizard units except Lord Kroak.
4) Blessed Cloak of Sotek: In the hero phase this unit may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more all Seraphon units within 8" may reroll run rolls, charge rolls, and save rolls until your next hero phase. If your General is within 8" of a Skink Hero (including himself) he may add a +1 to the roll.
5) Venerable Lord Kroak: If you assign Lord Kroak as your general, you may choose the "Venerable Lord Kroak" Trait in exchange for giving up summoning. Lord Kroak his points cost will drop to 400 points, and he may choose up to 2 spells that are known by any friendly Order wizards.
6) Guardian of the Temples: If the Seraphon's battle trait "Ancient defenders" gives a friendly Seraphon unit the effect to ignore a wound or mortal wound on a dice roll of 6, it may add 1 to the dice roll to see if it is able to ignore the wound.

Artifacts of the Old ones:
1) Shield of Gor'rok: This Artifact allows the Seraphon hero to ignore enemy Rend characteristics of -1 (if the hero already has a similar effect, it will increase the ignored Rend characteristics by -1). If the Seraphon hero has less wounds then 10, it's wounds will increase by 1.
2) Battle Harness of Grymloq: This Artifact gives a bonus effect to the heroes mount. On a wound roll of of 6 or more, the mount's bite attack will deal mortal wounds.
3) Oldblood's Helm of command: This hero may choose to combine units of Skinks or Saurus Warriors. When 2 or more units of Saurus Warriors or Skinks are within 3" of each other, the Seraphon hero may role a dice. On a roll of 4 or more the unit may move it's models up to 3" towards each other, and become one unit.
4) Talisman of the Thunderlizard: This item may only be worn by heroes who ride on top of mounts. The hero may heal 1 wound in each of your hero phases. Additionally, the hero may choose to destroy the Talisman and absorb as much of it's power as it can in one turn. When doing so the hero heals for 1+D3 wounds, but in exchange it may not gain it's original healing in the following turns. Additionally, you may give this item to any Seraphon monster, even if they do not have the Hero Keyword, and it will heal D3 wounds at the end of the combat phase if it has at least dealt 1 point of damage to an enemy unit in that same phase. However, the monster may not choose to destroy the Talisman to gain it's instant effects, nor does it gain the automatic healing of a wound in each of your hero phases..
5) Banner of Sotek: Substract 1 from the hit rolls of any unit within 3" of this model (friend or foe), unless the unit has the Seraphon Keyword. Additionally, the Hero may choose to inspire a single Seraphon battleline unit within 8", giving them the effect instead.
6) Idol of the fates: Once per phase, you may increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll for this unit by one. This does not stack with effects that give a similar bonus (As such the Starseers "Curse of Fates" spell is wasted on this unit). Additionally, if the hero didn't use this item in your hero phase, he may choose to forgo this bonus and grant it to a single Seraphon battleline unit within 8" until your next hero phase.

How do these Command traits and Artifacts sound? As well as the new Command trait that Seraphon heroes can choose? I felt that many Seraphon heroes didn't have the best commands, so I wanted to give the option to pick one that gives a viable bonus in all situations.

Thoughts?

 

[Bowser]

I like it, some great ideas here, I am not a big fan of lore of the old ones and Lord Kroak. For lore I would give some specific spells. Like I would go back and use some of the spells from lore of High magic from 8th.
For Kroak, While I do feel he is overpriced, I think dropping the points cost is unnecessary. I would just make him worth the 540 points. Like giving him two new spells to choose from and making Mystic shield and arcane bolt work as prayers instead of spells. Maybe not that exactly, but add the value instead of lowering the price.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

I like it, some great ideas here, I am not a big fan of lore of the old ones and Lord Kroak. For lore I would give some specific spells. Like I would go back and use some of the spells from lore of High magic from 8th.
For Kroak, While I do feel he is overpriced, I think dropping the points cost is unnecessary. I would just make him worth the 540 points. Like giving him two new spells to choose from and making Mystic shield and arcane bolt work as prayers instead of spells. Maybe not that exactly, but add the value instead of lowering the price.

Those are some great points! The idea for the Lore of the Old ones is to give the Slann more flexibility. But not give him access to Lord Kroak his spells, as those are quite powerfull. Perhaps I could limit the spells he can choose from to those from Tier 2 Wizards and lower?

But if I go with specific spells, what spells would you give him then?

As for Lord Kroak, how would you increase his power? Do you have an idea for spells that would work on him? And with Prayers, what are those exactly? Those can be cast freely and can't be countered?

For these two traits, I am giving up summoning after all.

 

[Bowser]

The prayers still need a roll, it would work like the skink priests celestial rites.
For specific spells I was thinking something like walk between planes where you can move a unit for free, and tjey can move over other units. Or pick from another lore, 8th did have some great spells that would translate over fairly well.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

The prayers still need a roll, it would work like the skink priests celestial rites.
For specific spells I was thinking something like walk between planes where you can move a unit for free, and tjey can move over other units. Or pick from another lore, 8th did have some great spells that would translate over fairly well.

Those actually sound really awesome! How about we keep the 3 spells from the Order spelllist trait for the Slann the same, and give those extra features to Lord Kroak?

Aside from the prayers, he would still have 4 spells he could cast, meaning that he can cast his two featured unique spells, but then he still has 2 spell slots left. How would you name these spells, with one of them having the effect you described, and the effects they would give?

I'm afraid I am not yet familiar with 8th edition, so any help in that regards would be greatly apprecaited ^^;

 

[Bowser]

I would leave the spell name as walk between worlds, it's a nice callback to the old world,
Maybe fiery convocation
Roll a dice for each model in a unit, for every 4+ deals one mortal wound.
In the. In each subsequent phase of your turn roll a d3 and deal that many mortal wounds to the unit.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

I would leave the spell name as walk between worlds, it's a nice callback to the old world,
Maybe fiery convocation
Roll a dice for each model in a unit, for every 4+ deals one mortal wound.
In the. In each subsequent phase of your turn roll a d3 and deal that many mortal wounds to the unit.

Well, with regards to the "Walk between worlds", how would you balance that? Perhaps the effect could be something similar to the Stormcast Eternals their teleportation?

With regards to Fiery Convocation, the idea is to have a spell that has a 50% chance to slay each model in that unit right? Do you think that is balanced enough? Or perhaps the effect would cease if you had miss rolled twice in a row or something?

Right now the closest thing that is similar is from the Luminark of Hysh, which deals D3 wounds, or twice that amount of there are more then 10 models in the unit, or three time if there are more then 20. So 3 to 9 mortal wounds. But then again Lord Korak is very powerfull, so it would make sense that his spells are also more powerfull.
And the "subsequent phase", what did you mean with that? And was that also for Fiery convocation?

 

[Bowser]

Yeah I went a bit over powered there. Maybe just make it 5 and 6 or even just 6 to deal the mortal wounds.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Yeah I went a bit over powered there. Maybe just make it 5 and 6 or even just 6 to deal the mortal wounds.

I like that idea How does a mortal wound on a 6 sound for each model if there are more then 20 models in that unit? And then a mortal wound on a roll of 5 or 6 for each model if the unit has between 10 and 20 models? And if it is a single model, deal D6 mortal wounds? The range would be 18", so Lord Kroak would need to go relatively close to an enemy unit. The idea is that Fiery Convocation would have to spread it's fire among more units if the enemy unit was larger. This would be a powerfull spell, but then again Lord Kroak is a very powerfull Spellcaster. Was Fiery Convocation also a Spell from 8th edition?

As for the teleportation idea, how would you make that work? I'm interested in some input, as I like the idea of you being able to teleport units like in 8th editon. Could you describe to me how that spell worked there in the old Fantasy game settings? I would love to add that here as well.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Also, what other spells did Lord Kroak or even the Slann had that made them so powerfull in 8th edition? Aside from the Teleportation magic?

Also, how about this idea: Lord Kroak with that trait now gives up summoning, but instead may cast Mythic shield and Arcane bolt as prayers (still has to roll to cast the spell, but it can't be counter spelled, and he can cast those in addition to his other spells). Additionally he gains access to Fiery Convocation, and "Walk between worlds".

Fiery Convication: You may target a enemy unit within 18 inch. That unit suffers D6 mortal wounds. Additionally, at the start of the enemies hero phase you may roll a dice for that unit. On a 4 or more the enemy unit will suffer D3 mortal wounds, and this effect will continue until you roll a 3 or less in the enemies hero phase.

Walk between worlds: "A Target Seraphon unit may be moved, and be positioned over enemy units. Roll two dice, each model of that unit may be moved up to that amount in inches, and be positioned over and near enemy models, as long as they are 1/2 inch away from them.

For the Walk between worlds I was thinking something about Vanguard wing Battalion. But instead of needing the Prosecutors, you could teleport a number of target units a certain distance? https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Edition_1.1/Stormcast_Eternals#Warscrolls Again, I will need to balance this.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

But could you tell me more about how the Slann and Lord Kroak their magic, including the "Walk between worlds" worked in 8th edition? I would love to think of something that is a tribute to the old 8th edition fantasy Warhammer

 

[Bowser]

Lord Kroak only knew Deliverance of itza but could cast multiple times.

Walk between worlds was I think 8 to cast 24 inch range choose a friendly unit. They gain ethereal (can move through things and inly be damaged by magic) and immediately move up to 10 inches. the bumped up version allowed them to move 20 inches.

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Lord Kroak only knew Deliverance of itza but could cast multiple times.

Walk between worlds was I think 8 to cast 24 inch range choose a friendly unit. They gain ethereal (can move through things and inly be damaged by magic) and immediately move up to 10 inches. the bumped up version allowed them to move 20 inches.

I love that idea Well how about I change it all a bit and get something like this?

Seraphon Allegiance

Battle trait: Ancient defenders:
Non-monster Seraphon Units within 8" of any Seraphon heroes (Including the heroes themselves) may add 2 to their bravery and 1 to the result of any save rolls for it. The +1 on save rolls does not work on Seraphon units with a base defense of 3+ or lower (meaning that units such as Chameleon Skinks, who gain an different Save when in terrain, still gain the +1 bonus on save rolls). Ripperdactyl/Terradon riders and Chameleon Skinks don't have to be within 8" of a Seraphon hero to gain this benefit. If the Seraphon unit already has a similar effect (such as Saurus guards), it may ignore a wound or mortal wound on a dice roll of 6. Additionally, the eternity Warden gains both the +2 to bravery and +1 to save rolls, as well as the chance to ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a dice roll of 6.

New command ability: The General of your army may gain access to the "Wrath of the Old ones" command. This gives a +1 on hit rolls to all friendly Seraphon units within 10" of him.

Command Traits:
1) Skaven rug Standard: All Skink units and Salamanders/Razordons within 10" of your general receive a +1 on wound rolls in the shooting phase. Kroxigor units gain +1" reach (up to a total of 3"), and -1 bonus Rend on all attacks. Additionally, the "Jaws like a steel trap" ability always inflicts 1 mortal wound on a wound roll of 6, and effects that increase damage (like the Starpriest's "Serpent Staff") also increase this mortal wound, as well as the abilities original damage (if any).
2) Skaven rug cape: All Saurus units within 10" of your general can make an additional attack with their "Powerfull jaws and Stardrake shield" attacks, and all "Powerfull jaws and Stardrake shield" attacks receive a +1 on wound rolls.
3) Lore of the Old ones: A Slann Starmaster in your army, whom you assigned as your general, may choose to gain the "Lore of the Old ones" trait in exchange for giving up Summoning. Becoming a Slann Mage Priest in the process. You may chooses up to 3 spells that are known by any friendly Order Wizard units except Lord Kroak. Any Engines of the gods under your army change as described below.
4) Blessed Vassal of Sotek: In the hero phase this unit may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more all Seraphon units within 8" may reroll run rolls, charge rolls, and save rolls until your next hero phase. Additionally, your General may carry the "Idol of Fates" artifact for free, and in addition to any other Artifacts it can normally carry. Giving him the "Idol of Fates" Artifact does not count towards your maximum number of Artifacts. He may however not give over the boon to another Seraphon unit.
5) Venerable Lord Kroak: If you assign Lord Kroak as your general, you may choose the "Venerable Lord Kroak" Trait in exchange for giving up summoning. Lord Kroak may cast Arcane bolt and Mythic shield as Prayers (they now count as abilities, and can be cast in addition to his main 4 spells. He still has to succeed at Spellcast rolls for them, but they can't be countered). Additionally Lord Kroak has access to the "Fiery Convication" and "Walk between worlds" spells, and he may cast "Celestial Deliverance" up to 3 times as stated in the description, despite rules of 1. Any Engines of the gods change similar to those under the "Lore of the Old ones" Command trait, as described below.
6) Lord of Saurians: Seraphon Monster units also gain the "Ancient Defenders" battle trait, but don't need to be within 8" of a Seraphon hero (The +1 to save rolls still doesn't work on Seraphon monsters whose save roll is 3+ or lower). Seraphon monsters who suffer a wound or mortal wound may roll a dice, and ignore the wound on a roll of 6. Seraphon monsters with a base Save of 3+ may add +1 on those rolls. If the Seraphon's battle trait "Ancient defenders" gives a friendly Seraphon unit the effect to ignore a wound or mortal wound on a dice roll of 6 (Such as Saurus guards and the Eternity Warden), they may add 1 to this dice roll.

Artifacts of the Old ones:
1) Shield of Gor'rok: This Artifact allows the Seraphon hero to ignore enemy Rend characteristics of -1 (if the hero already has a similar effect, it will increase the ignored Rend characteristics by -1). Additionally, the Seraphon hero may roll a dice whenever it suffers a mortal wound, which is then ignored on a roll of 4 or more (stacking with similar effects). If the Seraphon hero has less wounds then 10, it's wounds will increase by 1. This Artifact does not count towards the maximum number of Artifacts that a Hero unit may carry.
2) Battle Harness of Grymloq: This Artifact gives a bonus effect to the heroes mount. On a wound roll of of 6 or more, the mount's bite attack will deal mortal wounds. Effects that increase the base damage of the bite attack will also increase the mortal wounds damage. If the hero has "Powerfull Jaws and Stardrake shield" attacks of his own, or similar attacks, these attacks can also become mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6 or more.
3) Oldblood's Helm of command: This hero may choose to combine Seraphon Battleline units. When 2 or more units of Seraphon battleline units are within 3" of each other and in line of sight of the Hero, the Seraphon hero may role a dice. On a roll of 4 or more the unit may move it's models up to 3" towards each other, and become one unit. Additionally, if the model that is formed gains bonusses based on the amount of models that it has, it will retain those even when losing the needed models until your next hero phase. From there on, the Hero may roll a dice for each combined unit in each of your hero phases, and on a roll of 4 or more it will regain all the original bonusses it had when forming into one unit.
4) Talisman of the Thunderlizard: This item may only be worn by heroes who ride on top of mounts, or Seraphon monsters. The hero may heal 1 wound in each of your hero phases. Additionally, the hero may choose to destroy the Talisman and absorb as much of it's power as it can in one turn. When doing so the hero heals for 1+D3 wounds, but in exchange it may not gain it's original healing in the following turns. Additionally, you may give this item to any Seraphon monster, even if they do not have the Hero Keyword, and it will heal D3 wounds at the end of the combat phase if it has at least dealt 1 point of damage to an enemy unit in that same phase. However, the monster may not choose to destroy the Talisman to gain it's instant effects, nor does it gain the automatic healing of a wound in each of your hero phases. If you give this item to the monster of a mounted hero in this way, the hero may carry an additional item.
5) Banner of Sotek: Substract 1 from the hit rolls of any unit within 3" of this model (friend or foe), unless the unit has the Seraphon Keyword. Additionally, the Hero may choose to inspire a single Seraphon battleline unit within 8", giving them the effect instead.
6) Idol of the fates: Once per phase, you may increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll that affects this unit by one. This does not stack with effects that give a similar bonus (As such the Starseers "Curse of Fates" spell is wasted on this unit). Additionally, if this item is used to increase or decrease the result of a Ability roll that affects this unit, you may increase or decrease the result by an additional 1 (up to a total of +2 or -2). If the hero didn't use the item in the hero phase, he may choose to forgo it's bonuses until the start of your next hero phase, and instead grant them to another Seraphon unit within 8".

Spells:
Fiery Convication: Spellcast roll 7 to cast. You may target a enemy unit within 18 inch. That unit suffers D6 mortal wounds. Additionally, at the start of the enemies hero phase you may roll a dice for that unit. On a 4 or more the enemy unit will suffer D3 mortal wounds, and this effect will continue until you roll a 3 or less in the enemies hero phase.
Walk between worlds: Spellcast rolll 8 to cast. You may choose a friendly Seraphon unit within 24". They gain ethereal (Immune to rend, and may try to ignore mortal wounds on a dice roll of 4 or higher) and immediately move up to 10 inches. They may also move over other units, as long as they end up more then 1/2" away from other models.

Engine of the Gods changes
Engines of the Gods under armies with the "Lore of the Old ones" and "Venerable Lord Kroak" command traits gain +5" Range on their abilities. Additionally, rolling a 14-17 with it's Cosmic Engine allows the Engine of the gods to bless an Allied Seraphon unit within 20" (including bonus range) until your next hero phase instead of it's old effect. That unit becomes Ethereal (immune to Rend, may ignore mortal wounds on a dice roll of 4 or more), no longer suffers any negative penalties/effects (like -1 or more to hit etc.) except (mortal) wounds, gains a bonus -1 Rend on all attacks, and the damage of all it's attacks increases by 1 point.



How does this sound? I changed it a bit so that you will need the "Saurian Lord" command trait in order to give the +1 on saves to your monsters.

EDIT: Made some changes to the Idol of the Fates, and the Oldblood's helm of command items.
EDIT: I made some Engine of the gods changes, and added those here.
EDIT: I made some changes to the Lord of Saurians and Skaven rug standard command traits.

 

[Bowser]

This is a good looking list! I will attempt to come up with something similar this week. I think if we share and exchange ideas we could probably come up with something book ready!

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

This is a good looking list! I will attempt to come up with something similar this week. I think if we share and exchange ideas we could probably come up with something book ready!

Sweet! Btw, seeing as they are working on the general's handbook, is there a chance they might give more Allegiances in that? They were asking for suggestions and ideas, perhaps we could somehow share this with them?

 

[Bowser]

I think it is definitely possible. Will have to try to get in touch with their R&D and see if they want some crowd sourced input to give them some options for implementation of new path to glory and Allegiances.