AoS Reinforcing units with summoning

[Canas]

Is it possible to reinforce an existing unit using the summoning of the EoTG or a slann? If it is possible it'd be interesting for saurus warriors and skink given their horde bonusses. Also, if it's not possible then the summoning for these two seems somewhat sub-par since you'l never be able to summon a real horde with it.

 

[Bowser]

No, any unit you summon is it's own separate unit and cannot be used to reinforce existing units.

 

[Canas]

well that's a shame in combination with horde mechanics..... then the only way to get any benefit from that is by starting out with a huge unit...

 

[Bowser]

Yeah, it's a bit of a pain, summoning just isn't too viable in smaller games.

 

[Killer Angel]

The only exception to this were zombies, and now even that has become debatable.

 

[benclark]

You just need a larger reserve pool if you want to summon a large unit all at once.

 

[Killer Angel]

You just need a larger reserve pool if you want to summon a large unit all at once.

Unfortunately it doesn't work exactly in this way: you still need to follow the summoning rules, for example "Summon saurus" has a casting value of 6, and you summon 10 warriors. With a casting of 11+ you can summon 20 of them, but that's it, you simply cannot summon a 30x unit to gain the bonus of additional attacks.

 

[benclark]

Unfortunately it doesn't work exactly in this way: you still need to follow the summoning rules, for example "Summon saurus" has a casting value of 6, and you summon 10 warriors. With a casting of 11+ you can summon 20 of them, but that's it, you simply cannot summon a 30x unit to gain the bonus of additional attacks.

Ah good point, hadn't thought about that, yeah does kinda suck then. Especially since I doubt I'd use summoning until I'm playing 2500pt+ games.

 

[Killer Angel]

Summoning is still a good tactic, but you need to work with it.
For example, when you can summon at 40" with Astrolith and Arcane Vassal, the chance to pop 10 skinks or 10 saurus directly on a distant objective, it can change the game.

 

[benclark]

Summoning is still a good tactic, but you need to work with it.
For example, when you can summon at 40" with Astrolith and Arcane Vassal, the chance to pop 10 skinks or 10 saurus directly on a distant objective, it can change the game.

Yes but that's 520 points just for the casters (260 for the Slaan, 100 for Skink Priest, 160 for Astrolith or 800 total if it's Lord Kroak) on top of anything else you have in your army, plus reserve points which is going to be more than just the 100pts for the Saurus Warriors, I wouldn't consider less than 300-500 points in reserve to make using them worthwhile especially since if you roll well then you're going to need double the reserve points cost of whatever you're summoning. But yeah 38" (max I can see, 15" for the spell, 8" for the Astrolith and 15" more for the Priest (Arcane Vassal)) is no doubt really good on a field that's only 48" deep.

 

[Killer Angel]

Sure, it's costly!
However, in large games, Slann is a solid choice, and at that point a BSB gives all its benefits.
I woulnd't use Kroak, actually it's unplayable: too much points and the FAQ on the rule of one nerfed him dramatically.

 

[benclark]

How is he nerfed? Yes Arcane Bolt, Comets Call and Mystic Shield he could only cast once but his warscroll would supersede the rules in my view as it specifically states and the conditions required to do so for casting Celestial Deliverance 3 times and I don't find anything in the Errata FAQ's that say he can't do this. Although yes for most battles I think I prefer the regular Slaan, Kroak's abilities can be in the right situation much more powerful, but for the points too I'd rather have pretty much any other unit extra to field.

 

[Killer Angel]

It's in the "General's handbook Official FAQs and errata", downloadable from GW's site.


Q: Do abilities such as Kroak’s Celestial Deliverance or the
Fatesworn Warband override the Three Rules of One, as they
specifically allow you to use the same spell more than once?

A: No.


GW decided that a general rule trumps a specific exception. Yeah.

So I have a model that costs more than 2 slanns combined, cannot cast through arcane vassal and cannot use its most peculiar spell. Comet's call is an exceptional spell, but i don't think it's worth the price.

 

[Bowser]

but his warscroll would supersede the rules in my view as it specifically states and the conditions required to do so for casting Celestial Deliverance 3 times and I don't find anything in the Errata FAQ's that say he can't do this.

Here it is in the faq:

 

[Canas]

slightly veering off-topic by now, but god that makes the rule of one a stupid rule... magic is already fairly limited & I already didn't like the rule of one much (I'd prefer a "using the same buffs/debuffs multiple times doesn't stack, but you can cast them however many times you want") but if you're then going to ruin special spells like kroaks it makes magic quite dissapoint...

 

[benclark]

Ok wow, couldn't find that, yeah that is beyond stupid. Like I can use him in any friendly non-point game but since tournaments will always been points based for fairness then that's just idiotic. The fact it's already made harder to cast it each subsequent time should be more than enough to qualify it as Kroaks feature but to say nope makes him useless.

 

[Bowser]

Ok wow, couldn't find that, yeah that is beyond stupid. Like I can use him in any friendly non-point game but since tournaments will always been points based for fairness then that's just idiotic. The fact it's already made harder to cast it each subsequent time should be more than enough to qualify it as Kroaks feature but to say nope makes him useless.

Yeah, given that, they should have dropped his points to about 320 or so. Oh well.

 

[Tlac'Natai the Observer]

@benclark , I'm with you, I think that the rules of one hit spell casting harder. It does seem like the harder subsequent casting should be the balancing of the spell. Same with summoning, they have different casting values, which I always thought was the internal balancing back in open play. The other part of the balance was that each wizard could only attempt each spell once, that seemed limiting enough on casting honestly (no one in my group felt like magic was OP in any way, may just be the dynamic

It seems like they determined points values based on their Open Play effectiveness, AND THEN implemented the rule of 1s. If you look at Nagash, he can cast, what is it, a thousand spells per hero phase? but this rule of 1s nerfs him to the point where you can't justify bringing him. Coupled with the summoning pool rules, I don't see Nagash ever being worth taking to the field. I don't think our Seraphon armies depend on summoning as much as Death, but I do sympathize with the crowd who wants to exploit this fun tactic of summoning.

 

[Canas]

Another question about summoning, with the whole "needs to be at least 9" away from enemies, wouldn't it be relativly simple to block it from happening by loosely surrounding the summoner? For example if you take the engine of the gods with it's 8" range on the summon, simply getting a unit into melee combat with it would make it impossible to actually summon.

Are there any rules for this? Or is it just that rare that it never actually happens?

Also, is there any genuine explenation as to why we can't summon them close to enemies? I mean I get that being able to summon a carnosaur on top of your enemies warmachine behind all protective units would be rather annoying to deal with, but you can't even summon bodyguards like this if the threat is close to the caster.

 

[Bowser]

Yep, the enemy could completely block your casting, which was an internal balance for the no points days. AOS free play is extremely intuitive.