AoS Summoning: a call to save AoS

[WoollyMammoth]

This is a call to save the hobby. Almost all players are in a range from either angrily hating summoning to generally disliking it. A very few (undead, daemon or seraphon) players like the idea and defend it. There has been 8 months of testing by clubs all over the world trying to figure out how to make summoning work. Most have come to the same conclusion - you simply can’t allow unrestricted summoning as a standard rule for games of AoS.

Summoning has its place, but any and all players should be able to say “I don’t want to play with summoning” or “I would like to limit summoning in this way” and all Warhammer players should be able to respond with “sure, we can play that way”.

With enough wizards, summoning players can realistically double their starting size on the first turn, while players who lack summoning cannot. I don't really need to go into more details than that as a debate against open summoning. Pretty much everyone who cant summon agrees this makes their games one sided, and one sided games are not enjoyable.

All established comp systems are limiting or simply eliminating summoning. Summoning is only allowed when you play:

- Rules as Written: In the standard rules you could deploy a much, much larger army than your summoning opponent in anticipation in order to have a fair game. There are no limitations on summoning, nor are there limitations on deployment.

- Wound Limitation: This way you force non-summoning armies to start with the same wounds, whereas Seraphon, Undead and Daemons wounds are limited only by the number of times they can cast a summon spell.

Here are some facts regarding summoning in general:
- Warhammer existed for 30 years without summoning.
- There is almost nothing like summoning in 40k.
- There is almost nothing like summoning in other popular game systems.

Bottom line, summoning was implemented by GW in order to sell more models, and it worked. Some players read summoning and got excited and went out and bought a ton more models. Many people developed their strategies around summoning, and maybe even painstakingly painted 100 models to be able to summon them.

Unfortunately, the fact is that this is killing the hobby. All the comp systems see this logic and put an end to it. The main problem is that most people are simply not playing AoS because summoning is bonkers and there's some guy(s) at their club summoning all day and they have two choices; join the club and play these kind of games they don’t enjoy, or more simply, don’t get involved in AoS. I don’t know how it is in your area, but the clubs I have seen are still struggling to get anyone, even 8 months after AoS release and there are little to no events. There are at least 8 tabletop stores in my area, and it is still much easier to get a game of Malifaux or Infinity than AoS.

A few people like me are taking a stand and organizing a new club in which summoning is equally balanced with deployment and players can discuss and decide per-game whether they will allow summoning. I am finding like-minded people who are enjoying these kinds of games, and the club is growing.

The concept of limiting summoning really hinders people who want to summon lots of hordes. Frankly, this style of play is borderline unbeatable, and for those doing it, you know this. This being said, we shouldn’t hinder what people want to do to have fun and so, If you want to play this way, simply work out a balanced solution that both sides agree would be fair or fun to try.

My main army is Undead. I have it all. I could summon all day long but I simply don’t want to. My Undead lists are incredibly strong without ever having to summon a single model. If allowed to summon even lowly zombies or skeletons, I could blow out opponents who can’t summon, or play 7 hour summon-fests against other summon players. I also have a decent Daemon list and am starting Seraphon, yet I am content to never summon a model ever (other than to summon models from an agreed upon model/wounds/scroll/point limit as an ambushing technique). I’m involved with clubs that have found balance, over 100 fun games with lots of different kind of models, with no need for summoning more than an agreed upon starting limit.

Some people claim races need summoning, and that’s simply not true. In fact, Seraphon have some of the most powerful units, abilities and synergy and might even be the most powerful army you can take. My Undead lists are filled with hordes and fast cavalry, powerful synergy, spells and menacing monsters. Daemons have Slannesh that can kill you in the first turn, Nurgle that just won’t die, Khorne that have most of the hardest hitting things in the game, and Tzeentch that can dominate magic like no other. And if you truly believe these races are inferior, you can simply make a list mixing other races; AoS does not limit you from taking half Undead and half Stormcast Eternals for example.

The last 8th Edition tournament I went to was won by a (beautifully painted) Lizardman army. My Skaven got blown out 0-20. My point is, Lizardmen never needed to summon in the history of lizardmen, why do they need to now in AoS?

Some people say “well you play with your friends and its all good” or “it’s a gentlemen’s game and people won’t do that” but that’s simply not true. I’m trying to meet new people and get new people into the hobby. People are people, we bump heads and piss people off, even without trying to. We all have different levels of social awareness, we can hurt people’s feelings without having a clue. For example, this entire post will be really upsetting the people who have developed their game behind summoning. I don’t want to upset anybody, all I want is to grow the hobby and get more people excited about Warhammer and build a bigger scene, but it’s inevitable.

I know debating summoning to active Seraphon players is like preaching vegetarianism at a steak house, but just consider this; what is more important to you – offering your opponents summon limitations in your games, or having almost no one to play games with and watching your hobby die?

 

[Crowsfoot]

GW left a lot of AOS open to the players and I think summoning is one such aspect, looking at the rules it says,

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as Warhammer: Age of Sigmar, there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent, and apply the solution that makes the most sense to you both (or seems the most fun!). If no single solution presents itself, both of you should roll a dice, and whoever rolls higher gets to choose what happens. then you can get on with the fighting.

Summoning gives a dynamic to AOS that is both fun and frustrating, wether it needs restrictions is purely down to the players, we play small games at home and summoning is restricted to 20 wounds per 60 wound army base so 1/3 allowed per game.

I love my Seraphon and I'm starting a Deathrattle army, I can see me using summoning more with the Deathrattle as they are not as robust as Seraphon and it fits in with the concept of "walking dead" as it does for Seraphon "Called back to life"

Some people hate it and you will never convince them, I can't speak from playing others as it is just me and my son but yeah we have restricted it by talking through and playing games without restrictions, we found none restriction actually made it harder to win for the summoning army as you were constantly having units that could not move etc, we always play an objective game so it does not really fit summoning.

 

[YZK]

In my opinion, it's up to the player that can summon to be fair.
I use summoning as a tool to cover my weaknesses - not to overwhelm my opponent.
I only summon where necessary; if my defensive line is about to fall, if my opponent ambushes me, etc.

If a player uses summoning as a means to victory, that person is - pardon my french - a dick.
Instead of deciding not to play with summoning, it'd be a better solution to not play with a dick.
Age of Sigmar is about fun - if you don't know how to both have fun, don't play a game - any game.

I've played Magic: The Gathering for quite a while; certain combinations of cards can be obliterating.
When you play it for fun, you decide not to use those combinations.
My group stopped playing because me and a friend got decks they couldn't beat, so now we build decks that seem fun to play, and play against.
Anyway, my point is that when you build a list, it's your responsibility to think of whether it's fun to play against or not.

 

[Freddy25]

I think Summoning, as it is now, is a funny mechanic which grants variety and adds a layer of strategy to the game.

You (summoner) have to guess the right balance of deployed/summoned units, cause summoned models don't count among the initially deployed models but count among the total number of model slain at the end of the battle;
your opponent (not summoner) has to take into account this ability, and must find the best way to counter your mages and/or kill quickly the larger number of enemies possible.

BUT!

I'm with @WoollyMammoth saying that summoning shouldn't be allowed in the tournament scene.
I'd keep only the possibility to heal already present units (maybe), but not to summon extra models, and here's the reason:
in a tournament, or any classified match, every player must have the same tools to achieve victory.
If X has a summon-capable army (es. Seraphon) and Y has a "standard" army (let's say...) like Wanderers, simply
X has one more tool to use than Y, and this puts him in advantage and make him more incline to be the winner.

It's like being a teacher and telling your students:
"We now are going to have a drawing test.
Any of you will have to use a pencil and a rubber to recreate this subject, but Mark, Daniel and Rose can't use the rubber".
(Mark, Daniel and Rose embody the races which don't have the ability to summon troops).
Maybe Mark/Daniel/Rose's drawing will be the best in the end, but he/she was in clear disadvantage at the start of the task.

So, my opinion on "How to deal with Summons":
- use it freely in not competitive matches, or talk with your friend on how to limit it;
- don't use it in tournament matches
- if you want to make a compromise, allow summoning in matches played with not too big armies (1 to 80 wounds per player, circa)
but don't allow the possibility to summon models with the Hero/Mage/Priest/Monster keyword.

 

[Tip4Tap]

I was playing my first game last night. I was using my friends Slaves to Darkness army and my opponent was using undead. As this was my first game I was unsure on summoning rules. He said the way he'd play before was that if he had it in his collection he could use it. I was like WTF that seems a bit OP. Luckily for me my local GW has come up with a fair way to balance it.

In future the way I'd like to play is that if its in your list you can summon it. @Bainbow in another thread I think I remember you saying that the game was already balanced this way. I just can't find it in the rules anywhere.

 

[Tip4Tap]

This is actually a rule in the main rulebook and people just don't read it. It's only four pages, come on! If you take out 100% of your enemy's starting forces, you win a major victory. If your opponent starts with three models and then summons 100 more, you only need to kill three models in order to win because 3 is 100% of their starting army. SUMMONING IS ALREADY BALANCED BY THIS, YOU DON'T NEED TO BALANCE IT FURTHER!

Sorry for the double post. This is actually what @Bainbow said.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Sorry for the double post. This is actually what @Bainbow said.

True but killing all the starting force can be a problem if it is protected by 100+ summoned troops

 

[Freddy25]

Sorry for the double post. This is actually what @Bainbow said.

If I'm not wrong, I pointed out in that thread already that the sentece you quoted is incorrect. Or at least there's a (very important) part missing.

"If you take out 100% of your enemy's starting forces you win a major victory"
This is correct only if one or more of your models survive till the end of the battle.
Which is not so obvious when both of you start with 3 models and then your enemy summons 100 more!

"SUMMONING WOULD BE ALREADY BALANCED BY THIS" if you could claim a major victory at the very moment you take out 100% of your enemy's starting forces... but for now it seems a victory may be assigned only at the end of the match, which happens:
- if there are no enemy models left on the field of battle, or
- if it has not been possible to fight a battle to its conclusion or the outcom is not obvious
- immediatly when the objective of a Sudden Death Victory is achieved by the outnumbered player.
[AoS Rules, Page 2,Glorious Victory and Sudden Death Victories paragraphs]

(Personal opionion, as always)

 

[Bainbow]

An instant way to balance summoning perfectly is objective games. When it's more than just "kill the enemy," summoning stops being such a game changer.

 

[Freddy25]

An instant way to balance summoning perfectly is objective games. When it's more than just "kill the enemy," summoning stops being such a game changer.

I 100% agree with this.
Or maybe 90% (there are a few exeptions, after all...)

 

[Crowsfoot]

An instant way to balance summoning perfectly is objective games. When it's more than just "kill the enemy," summoning stops being such a game changer.

We always play an objective game, just playing to kill every model just seems pointless to me.

 

[Bainbow]

We always play an objective game, just playing to kill every model just seems pointless to me.

General murder-them-all games have their place, but I think a majority of games benefit from having objectives. Also dem battleplans where wizards get badass new spells. So cool.

 

[Chrakgar]

The way we play it down the club is you have your comp point score.. Ie SCGT 100pts, if you wanna summon you can take a side table, so reduce your pools for double summoning pool. (Eg for a 20 point summoning pool reduce your 100pt starting list down to 90) etc. But as another twist you can only summon on the minimum model count on the war scroll. So to summon on Warriors, you can only summon on 10 per spell.

This works really well and balances the game nicely.

 

[Crowsfoot]

The way we play it down the club is you have your comp point score.. Ie SCGT 100pts, if you wanna summon you can take a side table, so reduce your pools for double summoning pool. (Eg for a 20 point summoning pool reduce your 100pt starting list down to 90) etc. But as another twist you can only summon on the minimum model count on the war scroll. So to summon on Warriors, you can only summon on 10 per spell.

This works really well and balances the game nicely.

you can only summon a "unit" so for warriors 10 is your limit unless you score 11+ then you can setup 20.

So say you roll 11+ do you still only set up 10?

 

[Chrakgar]

Yep. 20 Saurus Warriors are way too overpowering in one summon.

 

[Bainbow]

Yep. 20 Saurus Warriors are way too overpowering in one summon.

Despite being only a minute chance? Isn't that like saying the triple 6 of an EoTG is too overpowering?

 

[Chrakgar]

Lol, It is only a suggestion and the way we play in club. Same rule across the board, even for daemons, undead etc.. anything that can bring units on.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Lol, It is only a suggestion and the way we play in club. Same rule across the board, even for daemons, undead etc.. anything that can bring units on.

It works for your group so nothing wrong with that, I could see that being a problem for the Undead player as they need the numbers for troops to be effective, talking warriors and zombies.

 

[Chrakgar]

Yer, then the undead player needs to decide whether it is beneficial to summon or field from the beginning. Summoning also means not being to cast other spells, mostly

 

[WoollyMammoth]

Great responses everyone

@Crowsfoot
The most important rule is if you "don't know how" to resolve something, not for changing the rules. Any limitation on summoning must be an agreed upon limit before the game. Your 1/3 rule is a nice way to balance. That might be fair as long as it means you get a max 20 per 60 as defined at the start of the game, and not that you can just summon 1/3 more units every turn.

@YZK
This is the self-correcting nature among friends only that really annoys me about AoS. Because you can't rely on a random person NOT TO be a you-know-what, AoS becomes more introverted; there are a ton of friends that just got the box and are playing it together, but when you check the boards and the clubs they are all empty. No one wants to go to the store and meet people only to play a game and have them summon 5 Bloodthirsters at them. This is the point of my post; as a community we need to get to the point where before any game you ask your opponent "how should we play summoining" and THEN if you cant agree, you flip a coin per the "most important rule".

MTG is beautifully supported and balanced regularly. You are specifically talking about playing magic without using these balancing rules, in which you can take any crazy combination of cards that your opponent cannot beat unless they themselves took a crazy combo. This is the same as summoning; you cannot beat it unless you do it yourself. Standard and Modern tournaments are balanced; no deck you bring is "unbeatable", there is always another great deck that can beat you, unless you are just playing a deck which attributes are specifically designed to counter the type your opponent is using. Unfortunately GW doesn't attempt to balance like MTG, so we have to come up with our own house rules. Honestly I wish all the overly competitive warhammer players would go play magic instead, it's such a great outlet for competition and heavily supported (I could play a MTG tournament every day of the week here) whereas warhammer is an expression of art and hobby in which competition is only a small aspect of.

@Freddy25
I like what you say but some people don't find it funny. Some people find it frustrating and annoying. Why would I ever want to do a drawing without an eraser? I might let my opponent have opening summoning because I want to play an "against all odds" game where I expect to lose, but this is a specific scenario. Normal games should have some restriction on summoning as a default - as you mention "discuss with your opponent before the game".

@Tip4Tap
"if its in your list you can summon it." sounds like the balance i use; if each side has 8 scrolls, a summoning army might keep 2 off the table and summon them. Summoning is huge; for my 4" moving skeletons, a free 18" summon move is a massive massive bonus.

I disagree that summoning is balanced because you don't "have to" kill the summoned units to "win". Games are not all about winning, and trying to defeat 100 of your opponents 200+ models with your 100 is not fun in any way to me as a standard game. (As @Crowsfoot mentions)

Now, if your opponent says, I'm starting with only 4 wizards against your 100 wounds, and we will see what happens, this is more interesting; now i have 100 wounds of models that just need to kill 4 wizards to win. This works out similar to rules as written; I can deploy 300 models to your 100 because I see that you are going to summon a ton. I would love to play only Nagash with rules as written as a scenario, but honestly I would need to be against two full armies because Nagash can summon upwards of 200 wounds per turn.

@Bainbow
Yes Time of War and Battleplans change the dynamic of the game and get away from "kill to win!" games and that's exactly what GW is pushing. These games can be much more enjoyable and is probably the way we all should be playing to enjoy the game and our models without getting too hung up on who can obliterate the other.

It takes the pressure off of summoning being broken, but it doesn't unbreak it. If i can summon a bloodthirster on every objective every turn, my opponent is not going to be enjoying themselves.

@Chrakgar
I like that balance. only 10 model units cant really break the game unless your opponent has a ton of wizards. I would also restrict to a # of summoning spells per turn though, to stop people from trying to exploit by bringing more wizards or wizards with more spells to make up the difference. Even being able to summon 20 zombies per turn can be surprisingly devastating.

@Crowsfoot
Undead do not need to summon extra models. I don't know how more I can emphasize this. You certainly can play this way if you like the concept, but they do not need to summon at all. Summoning zombies is in fact more devastating than anything else. You summon lets say 30; they combine into their own unit. They are coming back D6 per hero phase. They are attacking at 3+/3+ and every model they kill gives them another zombie. Then I can cast VDM on them and they are piling in twice per combat. I could literally have 3 protected wizards summoning nothing but zombies and I honestly don't think anyone could beat me with any list.

Grave guard have two rending attacks that do double damage on 6s to wound - several command abilities give +1 to wound. Necrosphinx halves all wound/mortal wounds and rips you up with insane attacks, and with the +1 to wound I am more than likely to get an additional 10 mortal wounds on any monster he is in combat with, plus I can spam his spell so you simply cannot kill him unless you manage to cause over 24 wounds on him before I get a turn. A Lord on Abyssal Terror has a spell to double movement so I can get any nasty monster or cavalry in combat with you first turn, such as Blood knights, hearty 3 wound 4+ knights that hit like a tank, can heal themselves and get a free model every hero phase. Scorpions ambush in your face from anywhere and Harbingers can charge 3D6 after being summoned, meaning they will make their charge on average. Skeletons are no less potent than any other infantry in the game when massed, but they heal back D6 every hero phase. I can get a bunch of the nastiest, unkillable units you've ever seen in combat with you before you ever get your first turn and you are very unlikely to beat an undead list when stuck in grindy combats with them. I can do all this without ever needing to summon more wounds than you ever. Frankly I'm annoyed at how oppressively powerful my undead lists can be, and that's why I have started taking other armies for the time being. My point is that undead does not need to summon to be competitive. period.