I'm sure I keep seeing people claim that Salamanders can march and still fire. Where does this come from? They're not skirmishers are they? Are they a Monster and Handler for all rule interpretations? I was challenged about this in a game the other night and could not provide a suitable answer. TIA Xhequimunqui
Thanks for that. I don't have my rulebook handy as I'm working today (well, more accurately, I'm in work ) Any idea what it says about Salamander and crew? I think I recall it saying they are Monster & Handler. If so, what happens now? Which rule takes precedence? TIA Xhequimunqui
they both work together, the FAQ says ADD the monster and handler rule into their profile, so, they are skirmishers who can march and shoot, and in combat the skinks are ignored, same as last edition pretty much remember that you still have to randomise hits, AND that a wound on a sally can be passed onto a handler on a 4(?)+ as per the handler rule
I checked the FAQ and the rulebook last night. Just to confuse the issue, the chart at the rear of the rulebook lists the Salamander as a Warbeast. Aaargh! Anyway, I saw the FAQ which adds Monster and Handler to the unit description, so it looks like the Salamander Hunting Pack is a Skirmishing Monster & Handler. So, next time I play with them and want to use all the best bits of both rules (march & fire (S), -1 to be hit (S), free reforms (S), 5+ passes wounds to crew (M&H), crew don't fight in melee (M&H)), what happens when my opponent insists that they use all the worst bits of both rules (no march & fire (M&H), no -1 to be hit (M&H), squishy crew fight in melee (S))? Xhequimunqui
Ok, well that's easily sorted. Monster and handler rules don't affect movement in any way, So you can always march and shoot and get -1 to hit Skirmishers rules don't affect combat in any way, Except that you can't get a rank bonus, so you form up behind with the skinks, Exactly the same as in 7th Skinks make supporting attacks, But can't be killed until the Sally is
the Lizardmen book says the salamander may move and fire. marching is not mentioned. I think in the old Lizardmen FAQ it said, that the salamander can't march and fire, now it doesn't say that anymore. the main book says skirmishers may fire also when marching. that looks to me like march & fire is OK now for the sallies. which makes them even more awesome
M&H does not specify you CAN'T march and shoot so it does not affect the ability of a skirmisher unit to do so. Also the crew does fight in melee, but can not be targeted in melee per the M&H rule. The rules are not mutually exclusive, so you get to use both unless they specifically state you can't do something one rule says you can.
Kurlin is correct, you need to look at what the rules say not what they don't say. M&H does not say may not march and shoot, it doesn't restrict it, it mentions nothing of it.
1 more question on this topic: the Lizardmen book says: randomize missile and impact hits: 1-4 hits salamander, 5-6 hits crew. how is this supposed to work with the M&H rule, which says if the monster suffers an unsaved wound, on a roll of 5-6 a handler is removed instead? RAW would be randomize first and then try to move wounds to handlers, but common sense says either 1 or the other...
That came up in a game I had with skaven. You randomize both hits for CC and hits for shooting. What this boils down to is that the salamanders have 3 wounds and the handlers get a 5+ save because they are hiding behind the sallies. You can lose all of the crew this way. The BRB also states that once a sally goes down, you remove all handlers that are left. See....Clear as mud!
CC is clear - you don't randomize there, you can just try to move an unsaved wound to a handler (but without any save for the handler - you have to remove the handler, as the rule says). the handlers don't have any save at all in CC, as you can't attack them at all anyway. I was more interested in shooting and impact hits - that was my question in my previous post.
It sounds to me like its going to be up to you and your opponent to decide until GW makes a ruling. No one here will be able to give a 100% answer one way or the other, all I can say is I agree that you shouldn't use both parts of the rule.
If I have a unit of 2 Sallies with 8 handlers, and I lose one Sallie, would I be required to also lose 4 handlers? One interpretation is each sallie gets 3-4 handlers, so you would lose them, the other school of thought is the unit still has sallies, so they keep their handlers, but once the second goes, you'll obviously lose all 8.
good question. the book says when the monster is removed, so are it's handlers. if the unit consists of several monsters and several handlers, my interpretation of the rule is, that the handlers should be removed only when all the monsters are gone. otherwise you would have to keep track of which handlers "belong" to which monster in that unit, which doesn't make sense. there are other cases in other armies - like skaven or O&G and they always used this approach, as far as I've seen. but hey - it could be more useful to you to have 2 separate units with 1 salamander + handlers each - gives you more movement freedom - the rare unit count limitation is gone.
I run 4 in my 2k+ lists, 2 units of 2, I tried soloing them for a bit, but then if one gets killed, opponent earn 80 points. With 2 in each block, they are a bit hardier and don't give up their points till everything is dead, and can actually kill some MSU Archer units if I decide to charge instead of flame on.
standard shooting rules say, that all models in a unit must shoot at the same target. there is no special rule for the salamander to change this = they have to fire at the same target. that's also 1 reason, why I like to keep them as separate units.