Tutorial Hero's/Lords/Unit/Item review and Tactica for games of 3k+

Introduction


There's already a fantastic review of the 8th edition Lizardmen book on this site and I certain have no intention of trying to replace that. This guide is based on my experiences of 'large games', I'm talking Grand Army level, usually with allies. People dismiss these sort of games as 'beer and pretzel evenings' and I can understand their point but actually whilst they're a lot of fun they require a lot more tactics and army building than people give credit for.

This guide will be split into two parts, general tips and approach, then a unit and item review. Some units of course remain terrible but others have a newfound use in larger games which means their point inefficiency in smaller ones becomes less of a problem. Others conversely diminish in value.

Army Style

Lizardmen are an army well suited to large games but you will need to change your mindset. Large units and survivability become much more important. Firstly this is simply because you will take a lot more damage getting across the battlefield than you're used to. Secondly and more importantly however, you will be deployed across a much wider area and the effectiveness of your BSB and general is greatly diminished. This makes items like Crown of Command and some of your special characters much more important.

The important thing to consider is that your space to manover is likely to be greatly reduced. You'll have a lot of troops on the board, ideally you don't want large blocks of units behind each other. Therefore all your units need to be able to take a charge so that means either lots of ranks and tough (Saurus) or lots of ranks and damage (poisoned skink cohorts), or leadership boosting abilities like stubborn and unbreakable. You need to make it tough for your opponents, banners and items that help you ensure the charge (Jaguar, extra movement etc) are also very useful or items that do extra damage or mitigate effects (Egg of Quango, fear items, razor standard, featherfoe torc).

It also means fans of skink clouds had better leave them at home. Firstly your space to flee will be greatly diminished, secondly, the quality of shooting will be vastly better than your own and thirdly, if you're allied you'll be deeply unpopular as you trigger friendly panic tests because your small units are getting blasted. Panic is much more of a problem in large games (unless you're desperate or suspicious allies of course) because many units will be far from both the BSB and the general and savvy opponents will pick on your small units.

As a Lizardmen player large games are all about you shutting down opponents, that's why wide deep formations supporting by hard hitting heros, lords and monsters are generally the best option despite the flanking risk. You want a frustrated opponent slamming his best units into the front of yours. You'll take huge casualties but remember that an opponent has to destroy a unit to get the points so as long as they're large enough, you'll do enough steady damage back. Buffs and augments are key, damage dealing spells should be considered as a pleasant bonus or to deal with specific threats (although death sniping is usually worthwhile). Essentially you're a giant stubborn broom pushing forward, clogging up his backlines with his units that can't escape out to attack you.

The risk to all this is fliers and ambushers, you need to have some hard hitting units (or hard to kill units) behind the lines to deal with anything that drops in behind. The beauty of this approach is that there's very little wasted units for you. MSU struggle in big games to bring their might to bear, by condensing the opponents playing area as quickly as possibly you're compounding the problem.

Whilst I'll talk about what I feel are optimum unit formations later, horde formations in general are very effective and also enables you to maximise use of tricks like Jungle Swarms through the number of attacks.

Army Composition


You should really be taking dual Slanns, one with Loremaster High Magic and One with Wandering Deliberations (unless you're not playing End Times Magic) for switching spells across each other. Loremaster means you'll then immediately know the rest of the spells from that lore. Ridiculous, but one of your most powerful attributes. More than dual Slann's are pretty unnecessary, I'll cover why in the magic element.

Assuming you're trying to be vaguely efficient on points you'll want one large group of Temple Guard for your offensive (36/35), wandering deliberations Slann and one much smaller bunker for your general and BSB Slann (16/21). Unless your Allies are exceptionally foolhardy and assuming you've taken the Standard of Discipline your Slann should also be the Supreme General in allied games. This means you need to keep him alive!

Interestingly the Slann with the BSB doesn't 'have' to be your armies general so if you can live with LD9 and you're in 1 vs 1 game it's sometimes worth placing him in the larger Temple Guard formation for double banner fun. I tend to like the Jaguar Standard and the razor standard because I roll very badly for charging and they're usually much safer in combat than marching towards it.

A good combination trick is to get your High Magic Loremaster Slann to swap with your offensive Slann for life, sit his unit behind the much larger temple guard unit and provide life magic for buffs whilst the wandering deliberations Slann goes to town.

I'd suggest something like:

WD Slann - Book of Ashur so he's lvl 5 effectively, Obsidian amulet for the magic resistance for the large temple guard unit

Slann General/ BSB - Potion of Healing (keep him alive!), channeling staff

If you're not taking Chakax then you're also going to need a couple of small sacrificial chameleon skink scout units to block opponents Vanguards and forward Scout deployments, painful but necessary. Te'kko can also do a nice job of helping out but if you only roll one Vanguard unit then you might as well paint a big 'shoot' me sign all over it.

You're also going to need some stuff to minimise your flank exposure. Razordons are probably the most effective at this as it's defensive role and it saves you Move Between Worlds which you'll want to cast on your sallies. Their additional range and quick to fire has far more of a psychological impact than necessary and it might buy you a precious turn or two.

A note on Heroes, Ripperdactyls and Terradons. Because of the amount of shooting, unless you're absolutely sure you'll be facing demons or WoC it's extremely risky to put too many points into backline targeting , however, they are extremely useful for blocking ambushers from coming onto the board and mopping up small enemy units that slip behind the lines.

Deployment

Deployment is going to much harder for you than other armies because you're going to want to maximise the BSB/ general but space limitations and your lack of mobility will mean that's going to be difficult. If it's an allied game you'll be in the centre because you'll be able to take a lot more punishment (again the exception being Dwarfs). So a nice thick set of squares bolstered with some anti flanking units is usually a pretty solid choice. You're going to be relying on crippling the enemys mobility and that's best done with tarpitting lords, heroes and/or magic. In essence you're going to squeeze your opponent off the board by denying him space and grinding down his units, your steggies (and carnies if you're feeling risqué) should be designed towards helping your infantry blocks and threat saturation, not gallivanting off on their own, you're not the flair player in this team!

Scouts are in fact incredibly unlikely to appear behind your lines in a big game because of the sheer number of units, however, its always worth keeping something fast and reasonably hard hitting behind your lines, facing ready for the charge.

I like to deploy the temple guard directly behind each other with not quite enough space for a dragon base. This essentially means your opponent should never be able to land a proper flier behind either unit because of the length and it also means any smaller fliers can easily be charged and broken through combat res. They also then take a dangerous terrain test for fleeing through the larger temple guard unit!

Magic

People get very excited about magic in large games but actually there are usually so many dispel dice and scrolls of various types around that unless you get irresistible force or use the new End Times Spells, it won't be as game changing as you think. For instance three players aside means three dispel scrolls before anyone's additional items and generally players will go defensive heavy.

I'll talk about special characters later but Te'kko is very useful for strengthening your magic phase for large games and the comet is very, very effective with the sheer number of troops on the board. Your allies will thank you as well since he works for all friendly wizards!

So what should you take? The channeling staff trick is obviously a nice one to have but I'd say your minimum level should be.

Alternative take: If you're playing in a 1v1 and are pretty confident about what your opponent will bring the forbidden rod is a better option. If you're playing in an Allied Game you're likely to be supreme general and I'd err to caution as you'll be facing multiple opponents who might fancy sniping a weakened Slann. I'm probably overly cautious though.

2 Slann - one with book of Ashur, one with channelling staff / forbidden rod
1 lv1 Beasts - dispel scroll
1 lv1 heavens - cube of darkness.

If you can squeeze him in Te'kko is a must but you need to make sure you've got good defence to force your opponent to risk the miscasts.

Unfortunately we don't have great spells to play the irresistible game with our lvl1's. Chain lightning is only ok and doesn't need to be ramped up really, 6" and D6 wounds isn't a lot to get excited about at this scale although at least you'll hit plenty of units. Transformation of Kadon is nice but there is of course the chance the skink priest might be not be alive to benefit!

One thing to bear in mind is low level spells tend to be much more effective in large games because the big pile of dice means everyone's expecting a big spell to go off. My top tip would be to start with as many of these as you can get away with, you'll probably get to about half your dice pile before your opponent clocks that's all your going to do (well it's good for one turn anyway!).

Unit Guide

Lords:

Mazdamundi: Unfortunately, if anything even more of a liability in large games. 18" is no longer so exciting and he's a cannon/ bolt thrower magnet.
Avoid

Lord Kroak: The unbreakable temple guard with -1 for shooting and CC is nice and makes him above average for large games but really the fun lies in undead or demons. Two level 1 skink priests, one with carpet, one with cloak of feathers. Fly them into the centre of the armies and span deliverance through channelling, it's not subtle but you can do it twice and by turn three Kroak should hopefully be close enough to handle things personally. I won't comment on the undeath lore but it feels to me like he can't use it.
Against demons/undead, excellent, Against everyone else, good.

Kroq-Gar: Well the 5+ ward to the mount is useful but hardly reliable. Unfortunately you'd still be better off building your own Old Blood. He's just not killy enough for the points and games at this scale means he's very outclassed sadly. Poor

Tehenhauin: Worth taking against Skaven, a Skink Cohort with hatred and poison is very effective, unfortunately you need more effective magic at this level than he can offer and swarms really should be used to buff your hordes.
Good against Skaven, poor against everyone else.


Slann Mage Priest: Not much to say on these guys, take two of them (unless you're doing the Kroak trick, or you're really confident in your ability to keep Chakax alive, top tip, don't be).
Excellent

Old Blood: In games of this size with things like Bloodthirsters in play you're no longer one of the top dogs. Focus is very important, I'd really suggest specific builds rather than jack of all trades. Virtually everyone will be packing a ward save or/and a 1+ re-rerollable and if you're going character hunting I'd suggest a 5+ward at a minimum and make sure you have enough strength to punch through armour. If you want to tarpit infantry for instance, don't waste points on things you don't need, make sure you're as efficient as possible. Still a great choice but you just need to think a bit more about what you want your Old Blood to be doing. You can't just throw him against characters and expect to win unless he's very geared up. It's also perfectly justifiable to put him in units simply to bolster them and for the look out sir.
Good

Heroes:

Chakax: For these sizes of games Chakax becomes a lot more appealing. In the temple guard unit he effectively gives your offensive Slann and your general a nice bubble of protection and gives real problems to armies like Dark Elves. The fact that he also makes them unbreakable is also a nice bonus, particularly if you take him in the large unit. What makes him rather more effective however is this ability to randomly destroy magic items. Because at this level many people are carrying some very nice gear the fact that he WILL hit them (thanks to imparting the Always Strikes Last Rule) people often throw the unit champion at him instead for the challenge. Not because they can't kill him (lets face it, killing machine he is not) but because they don't want to risk losing something they may need later on.
Surprisingly good although still not exactly points efficient.

Gor Rok: Still very good although somewhat more vulnerable now, T6 at this level isn't quite such a hurdle to overcome. Still his ability to make Saurus stubborn is very useful, just be cautious what you put him up against as he's going to be going second.
Good, but more for the extra CoC than the combat ability at 4-5k+.

Tetto'eko: : Games at this level start to look like a parking lot, particularly in the first couple of turns, comet therefore is actually quite damaging. The ability to improve the magic phase for you (and your allies!) is icing on the cake.
Excellent

Tiktaq'to: Unfortunately unless you like visualising a wave of ground to air incoming bowfire he's still not really worth it. The -1 to hit him is nice but since you're likely to fly over the bowman in question to reach the juicy stuff you're still going to be taking a lot of shots. More useful for defending your backline against ambushers but for the points I'd probably rather have some Scar Vet cowboys.
Poor

Oxyotl: Anything you will want to kill with him will have a ward save and an armour save and the chances of there being enough space to pop up in the backline is unlikely. Again also suffers from the same problem as Tiktaq'to that you're likely to take some incoming bow fire or worse still, a magic missile and you're not very survivable.
Poor

Skink Priest

Compulsory as scroll caddies, just don't expect to actually be casting any magic with them.
Average

Skink Chief: Mounted on a Ripperdactyl, particularly with Egg of Quango they can be a great anti -ambusher unit. If you're sending them up against anything shooty make sure you've got a charmed shield, he's only 3+ otherwise, Opal amulet isn't a bad idea either to ensure he makes contact alive. Assassination is less likely at this level but again using the Egg could mean killing off 300+pt mage for only 130+ points and you've still a shot with KB. In a pinch you can also give one CoC to make a Skrox unit more survivable but make sure he hangs off the end! Good



Scar Vet: Two good ways to play them, either individually as replacement champions for your units (keep the champions however in case you get into contact with something nasty) to give them a punch. Or as a brutal flanking unit of heavy cavalry. Individually on their own they'll be picked off or shot down, I wouldn't recommend it.
Excellent


Core:


Saurus: Don't bother with spears, units of 40 with hand weapons and shield in horde formation are what it's all about. Drop them some buff spells whenever you can slip them in under the dispel dice radar. They're a sound unit as long as you don't get too carried away and you'll still need to hit the core target.
Average to good

Skink Cohort: Without poison, a giant combat resolution waiting to happen, with poison... very very effective, you also don't care about their rubbish WS! With a Bastiladon they get to a pretty impressive I5 which is Elf territory. Their main weakness is low T high armour infantry who don't care so much about getting wounded but they murder monsterous creatures, elite infantry and things like Ogres and Wood Elves. Don't forget the javelins are quick to fire so you want to shoot and then receive the charge so you can shoot again. You have to remember at this level its less about point per point effectiveness and more about the overall capability. In a decent horde formation they should still be steadfast and won't care about the massive casualties. T2 also means most of the monsterous stuff is on overkill! Egg of Quango is also entertaining on a chief if you really want to annoy people...
Good

Skink Cohort with Krox: Let's be honest, the main reason you're probably doing this is to hit the 25% core target but its not a bad unit all the same. This is one of the few units I'd say might be worth taking in smaller sizes to try and get flank charges. The Krox help with high armour save infantry and at least they can only be hit by the front rank and not supporting attacks. It's much less efficient than the skink cohort but also less vulnerable to armour, not really worth it for the points but you'll probably need to have at least one to hit core unless you have a lot of Saurus lying around. Definitely make sure you attach a Scar Vet or a Skink Chief with CoC!
Poor-Average

Skirmishers: Either take them in large units or to block scout deployments but they'll mainly bleed points and create panic at this level. Big clouds of them (20+) are still viable to clear the way for your blocks and means they still stand a chance of stopping charging light cav.
Average

Special

Temple Guard: You're going to have to have them so thank goodness they're good. They need buffing however to compete at this level, the End Times metal spell granting a 2+ward save is particularly tasty. You're more likely to win through combat res than pure killing power. You'll also want a Scar Vet attached, the champion won't last long and you don't want the Slann getting stuck in challenges. I like the Jaguar Standard on them for Swiftstride but that's only because I roll badly. The razor standard is a better option if you have good dice.
Good

Steggie: Actually much more viable in big games because the giant bow has a lot more targets to make its points back. If hand of glory goes off then you stand a good chance of hitting something expensive. I actually prefer it to the ancient steg as its less reliant on getting close and therefore you can put it out to the side and aim for the flank charges. The downside is of course the thunderstomps aren't amazing but S5 will still put the hurt on most light infantry and you shouldn't be charging elite infantry anyway, Oh and always take sharpened horns, D3 wounds are really useful for games at this scale.
Good

Chameleon Skinks: Normally one of my favourite units but unfortunately of very little value in a big game. Opponents will have too many units for you to get behind and snipe a warmachine. There will also likely be plenty of skirmishers up front, all cheaper than your models. By all means though, if you think you're playing someone who will give you the space then take them! Useful for irritating opponents and blocking scouts but essentially they're just lost points.
Poor

Cold One Cav: Everyone else will have better cavalry than you. If you don't have allies then a small unit is very useful to respond to emergency situations and they're not terrible in combat. Otherwise pretend they're Scar Vets on cold ones!
Average

Jungle Swarms: Overpriced and inefficient in small games, fantastic in large games when your horde unit of Saurus' forty attacks suddenly become poisoned.
Essential

Bastiladon: Your biggest threat will be purple sun, anything that even slightly helps you mitigate that is crucial in large games. The fact it has a nice magic missile is just a bonus.
Essential.

Krox They're just not powerful enough on their own at this level, either drop them into the skink cohort to compensate for the weaknesses or stick them well out on the flank so they get a multi charge in. Not worth the points as most things won't struggle to take them down.
Poor

Ripperdactyl riders: Useful for putting the fear of god into an enemy character and making them hide in the backlines for a game but practically again, too vulnerable to the volume of fire. They're extremely vulnerable to magic missiles in particular. You are also very likely to be frenzy baited. That said against ambushers they're reasonably killy so make a nice backline protection unit unless you're expecting a very large unit to emerge. Good for backline defence and psychological effect, poor for everything else.

Terradons: For what you'd be using them for, Ripperdactyls are superior in every way. It's highly unlikely you'll be able to fly far enough to stay alive in the opponents backline.
Poor

Carnosaurs: Weirdly both less and more useful in big games because there tends to be more war machines but also more (and badder) monstrous creatures. They still have a 'shoot me' magnet but target saturation means its a bit of a trickier choice for an opponent. I still wouldn't say they're great but bloodroar can be very effective against armies like Orcs and Gobbo's where the whole lot can start running. Doom diver isn't pleasant however. If you are taking them then make sure the Lords riding them have a ward save as there will be some fairly intensive firepower coming their way. I've also noticed the psychological effect on opponents is pretty impressive, well above what it should be for a rather average monster so use that to your advantage but try to avoid conflict with heavy infantry. It gets chewed up fast.
Average

Rare:

Sallies: Everyones taking horde units and this uses a flamer template? And walk between worlds means I can position them for maximum effect... yes I'll be taking these. On the downside they are very vulnerable to being fired/charged at and you'll likely only get one shot at flaming something so make sure it's expensive. Good


Razordons: You can't go toe to toe with enemy skirmishers so don't even try. However they're great as flank protectors, a unit of three will murder light cav who are most likely to sweep round and they're quick to fire so don't even care if they get charged.
Good on the flank, average otherwise.

Ancient Steg: Still very good but it's even more important to be doing supported charges now. You're also likely to be using the giant blowpipes less as the range is more of an issue.
Good

Engine of the Gods: For the ward save alone, a must, try and position it so it covers your big block of saurus and both temple guards if you can.
Essential

Trogladon: Unfortunately big games in no way improve its viability, unless you're desperate to show off the model it simply doesn't do anything very well.
Avoid


Magic Items

Blade of realities: No ward save and I3 means you could well be dead before you use it. Against the WoC ward save sorcerer it's pretty fun though.
Poor -average

Piranha Blade: It's a bit expensive but this and armour of destiny are what you need for hunting characters at this level. Toss in a cold one for the mobility.
Essential

Sacred Stegadon Helm: Against enemy characters T6 doesn't mean so much but it's great for trolling heaving infantry with something like Sword of Bloodshed and a cold one (10 A at S5, 2 S4, S5 D3 impact hits and a 1+ save).
Good


Skavenpelt Banner: As has been said many times, great if you're fighting skaven (and I don't think they get re-rolls against the slann as they're not in base contact). Still fun to put on Temple Guard in your horde formation and you shouldn't be failing frenzy tests. You'll be charging most of the time so its certainly not awful.
VS skaven - excellent , everything else Average to good

The Jaguar Standard: Your Temple Guard will be safer in combat than out of it . Of course if you roll well all the time you don't need it!
Good

Cube of Darkness: The ability to shut down RIP is huge at this level. Unfortunately it's also highly likely you or your aliies will have something up.
Average to good, an extra dispel means you should probably always take it but its going to be situational.

Plague of Dominion:: Not really worthwhile unfortunately because of the slot it uses. Its also very unlikely that anything you care about will fail the test. There is a neat trick that they can't flee though... (stupid makes you ItP)
Avoid

Cloak of Feathers: Essential if you're taking Kroak against undead or demons. Otherwise the backline assassin isn't very effective as you don't have the points to keep your Skink Chief alive.
Good for Kroak build, otherwise poor

The Horn of Kygor: No different to the main 8th review, still terrible! If you've clustered enough beasts together to make this worthwhile you're a sitting duck.

The Egg of Quango: My favourite item at this level, great for character assassinations and for dealing with high armour save targets in your skink cohort. It's not that reliable but still well worth 30 points.
Good

 

Re: Hero's/Lords/Unit/Item review and Tactica for games of 3

Thank you for the great feedback!

I'd agree with most of your points, I won't give hard counters per se, just I guess my thoughts where I'm coming from.

You certainly have a point on the list tailoring, the only thing I'd say is that I guess I'm in the fortunate (unfortunate) postion where most of the people I do these games with can field 2-3 armies of this size so it's sometimes dangerous to go in with expectations, if you know what they're bringing though by all means tailor. For instance tomorrow I have a 12,000 point game, that means he'll be using 2 out 3 of his armies as allies but I don't know which ones!

I haven't considered Skink Chief in skirmishers. Generally I prefer to have enough of them that it's hard for opponents to kill enough in a turn of shooting to get them to run, hence my dislike of small units. It's certainly viable, I suppose I'd rather have the extra shooting and panic point but you're right, it certainly provides extra reslience and a nice bit of BS.

The problem with not taking hordes at this level is unless you're absolutely sure you'll be facing something pretty static most of the armies will be faster than you and will have elites which hit harder. That's why I tend to view winning the mobility war as a lost cause and prefer the counterattack but you're right of course if you're facing something like dwarfs or to a lesser extent WoC. Against Brets on the other hand you just have to resign yourself to getting charged and concentrate on not breaking. Just because they start in horde doesn't mean you can't flex your formations to help with steadfast if you're really worried about casualites.

I probably have been a bit hard on the poor Krox, I do definitely like them with the Skink cohort as they become a pretty good allrounder but I've never really found a great purpose for them on their own. They're not quite tough enough to work independently for me but I think you're right, if you know the opponent beforehand you could get a nice matchup.

Trogladon is an interesting one, killing power has never felt that important to me in these situations, I prefer resiliance but I do see your point. The only thing I would say is that with the Bastiladon and EoG already needing to be very close to your units you might struggle for space, but if you're better at manouvering than me (not hard!) I can see how it would add a nice counterpunch in a big combat with the special ability. Still doesn't really do it for me, in a horde Saurus he adds 6 extra attacks which doesn't feel that exciting but if you can position him right I suppose that could be 12 or even 18 which starts to sound pretty good!

I'd rather have the consistency of book of ashur for casting and dispelling on one of the Slann, lvl 5 is huge as a lot of the signature and lower level spells become pretty viable off one dice and re-rolling fails makes it even better. That leaves the general for forbidden rod. If it's your own general (1vs1) then I'd agree, take it as it's the better option and who doesn't like D6 extra dice, particularly if you're using the life trick. If you're playing in an allied game I'd suggest a bit more caution and go with the safer channeling staff unless you're sure of the armies and magic items your opponents will bring. There's also likely to be two to three dispel scrolls (at least) on the field so getting them to burn one isn't as useful as it in a 1v1. I guess I'm a cautious lizard by nature!

Cheers again for the feedback